GDMorti
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Posts posted by GDMorti
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Continued:
Theres a few millimeters of tolerance, so I suppose having a level 2 requirement TO THE PRECISE MILLIMETER is overkill and I'll probably remove it actually.Here's his math based on the measurements of an actual russian dosimeter, applied to an onscreen code cylinder spring clip.
Reference image distortion and "which pixel you start measuring from" will play a factor in any measurement, so yeah, getting it "to the millimeter" is probably too intense since until we get an actual screen used buckle, that still can't be 110% confirmed. But here's a few decent and very close approximations based on the spring clip shown above:
Depending on where you start measuring, you get "wiggle room" of 5ish millimeters for height, 10ish millimeters for length. To wit, I would recommend sticking with "2-2.5inch height, 4-4.5inch length" for buckle size in basic, which is more than enough wiggle room by the millimeter!
I know this is all work for a Lieutenant, but if anyone wants to try and honestly convince me that they machined different little plates of metal per costume then I am ready to be extremely incredulous. :3
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1 hour ago, nocternus said:
Is there evidence to support this?
I can only explain the working of my friend:
He's working on replica First Order code cylinders, and obtained some of the original Russian dosimeters in order to do this. To ensure his replicas would be as exact as possible, based on physical in-hand originals for measurements.
The spring clip at the top of the dosimeters is therefore a known entity. It's the exact same as the ones appearing in the movie (the body of the dosimeters is another matter, these have been altered for the movie, but I digress...).
The spring clip height measurement then, in relation to the belt buckle, can give us a solid buckle measurement. The spring clips would not change from Lieutenant to Lieutenant, and it makes absolutely no sense to machine a buckle to different scales for different uniforms. It's possibly the only real-world accessible, measurable element from any of the costumes, so a useful baseline for scale.
It's a change which probably needs rolling out to Hux and I've recommended it be added to the upcoming Mitaka. Hux's belt buckle CRL info as it stands would be wildly incorrect, allowing up to 5 and 1/4 inch long buckles! :S
EDIT: The working-out resulted in a 110x53mm buckle. In my draft I've included an approximation in inches (within a half-inch allowance for basic) and "around 110x53mm" in millimeters. I presume in the final, one or the other will be picked. For level two, an exact buckle to that scale could be required perhaps. -
Amended draft. Buckle scaling work undertaken by a friend of mine has determined that screen used FO belt buckles are exactly 110mm long and 56 mm tall. I've reflected this in the above:
Basic:
Approximately 2-2.5" in width, by 4.5-5” in length is acceptable.Level 2:
Buckle is 2.2 inches tall, and 4.3 inches long. (Rounded from millimeters and displayed in inches as this is the common measurement.
We have this information, we should be using it! Basic has a little bit of wiggle room but not much. No massive/undersized buckles!
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8 hours ago, nocternus said:
A good practice is to not use the word should in a CRL as it opens to interpretation
Something we tried to do with Mitaka/Lt's CRL was to try and keep "should"'s in the draft, because at the end of the day we weren't the final say and we were looking to advice the LMO's if anything. If I had my way, the "should's" would all be definite! If a seam is there on screen, it -would- be there in a costume replication. Etc.
I thought that "should"s were removed by the LMO team after a draft is accepted and they went to work on it. They're the ones after all who get the final call on what would definitely need to be on a costume, and what "can" be there/be made level 2 if it is not deemed suitable for basic. Myself and everyone who has looked at the draft prior to posting whose opinions I gathered on it, feel that the basic level proposed is entirely plausible, possible, and can be backed up by reference or technical know-how and explanation.
However! I'm happy to go through and remove all of the "should"s in areas that we feel are "definite"s if this would help the LMO team? I thought that the should's were useful but if thats not the case I'm happy to amend.
- Paggeldiwwer and Hask
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Works for me! I've amended the draft and added it to the list of common things this particular uniform does NOT have, alongside epaulettes and a bicep patch.
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1 hour ago, sundancekat said:
Question about the tunic...does it have a center back vent like the General (and I assume Lieutenant) tunic? I'm assuming it doesn't, since the tunic shouldn't have a CB seam with a collar like that. Should we explicitly state no CB seam or CB vent?
From what we've seen, it does not, no. The rear seams are mentioned as two traditional vertical princess seams, I would have assumed that it would be implied that these were the only seams, however yeah it is a change from the norm since Lt and Gen have the center seam. It could be worth stipulating it alongside the lack of epaulettes and bicep First Order insignia patch that its yet another thing missing from "the norm" so far?
EDIT: At the very least, despite lack of rear references, it would make absolutely no sense whatsoever for there to be a rear center seam or vent! This tunic style is super reminiscent of Imperial uniforms, the closest I've seen amongst the rest of the First Order uniforms! -
Afternoon all!
After running this past the tailoring and First Order knowledge of @rattleandburn, @Tentayena and @DarkJedi, I think we're in a really solid place with this draft!
I took the CRL draft provided on page three of this thread by @Tutanchseth and used it as a base to build on. A lot of the structure and highlighted changes were highlighted there, so I elaborated, standardised where I could, and ensured the text was as accurate and technically correct/worded correctly as I could. @rattleandburn was a huge help there for technical wording.
While working on this draft, a few standardisation issues across all First Order officer CRL's either currently available or in the works were highlighted, but we can discuss those elsewhere.
Without further ado:--------------------------------------------
First Order Major and Colonel CRL Draft:
Hair and facial appearance
For 501st approval:
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If hair is worn short, it should not extend past the top of the collar at the back of the neck.
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If hair is long, it should be neat and worn up in a military bun. Hair should also be kept neatly tied back away from the face.
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Costumer is clean shaven.
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If the costumer is wearing makeup, it should be subtle and appear “natural”.
Note: I’m adding apprarance guidelines for generic officers because I believe officers should be neat and tidy/presentable. Possible character specifics for Kaplan and Datoo have been given below for those looking to specifically portray those officers:
Colonel Datoo:
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Costumer is clean shaven.
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Very short, neat, greying (???) hair. Either the costumer’s own hair or a suitable hair appliance such as a wig.
Colonel Kaplan:
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Costumer is clean shaven.
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No visible hair, either through removal of costumer’s own hair or through suitable bald cap application.
Tunic, First Order Major, Teal
For 501st approval:
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Fabric is a medium weight suiting material exactly matching the pants.
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Fabric is a medium-dark blue with notable green tones similar to ‘peacock blue’ or specifically ‘blue teal’
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Fabric is twill, gabardine style weave is most accurate.
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Tunic is fitted to the wearer.
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Tunic is double-breasted and has a left over right closure. It ends atop the right seam as seen in reference pictures. The fastenings for this closure should be completely hidden.
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The top edge of the front closure continues downward from the left-hand side of the collar in a 45 degree angle across the upper chest where it fastens into place.
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The collar is not separated from the front panels, nor the back, by a seam. The only seam is that which follows through from the shoulder seam to the neck, separating front and back of tunic.
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Collar is draped so that it lies neatly against the neck, snugly fitting, with no noticeable bend or wrinkle. Overlap of collar portions is at a noticeable angle, forming a visible V-shape at the center throat - no rounded shape.
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Sleeves are long, and without decoration, folded cuffs or buttons. A visible seam line separates the sleeve from the straight cuff portion, which is approximately 4.5 - 5.5”.
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There are two vertical seams - straight princess seams - running the full length of the garment, on both front and rear of the tunic. These seams meet each other at the shoulder seam, approximately halfway between the neck and the sleeve seam.
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Tunic has a waist seam spanning the full circumference of the waist, hidden by the belt.
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The tunic does not feature epaulets, a center-back seam, nor a First Order insignia patch.
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There should be no visible hems or top-stitching on the sleeves, collar, tunic opening or along the bottom of the tunic.
For level two certification (if applicable):
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Tunic is fully lined in a suitable colour.
Jodphur Trousers, First Order Major, Teal
For 501st approval:
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Fabric is a light to medium weight suiting material exactly matching the tunic.
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Flared jodhpurs have sharply pointed, semi-stiff flares in the hip/thigh area, below the tunic and above the knee. The shape of the flared pants at the thighs should be slightly rectangular as per reference images. This flare should follow the flare of the bottom of the tunic. This angle should not change.
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Pockets and waist belts are acceptable, although should not be visible with the tunic on.
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Stirrups may be attached to the leg bottoms to keep material tightly tucked into the boots
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The fabric below the knee should remain fitted to the leg and tuck tightly into the boots.
Officer Boots, First Order, Black
For 501st approval:
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Knee-high, black, lace-less, smooth non-textured, leather or leather-like material, with moderate to high-gloss shine.
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Rubber rain boots or wellington boots are not acceptable.
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PVC or synthetic material is allowed as long as it gives the appearance of leather.
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There are no stretch panels, buckles, snap tabs, or decoration.
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Boot seams must closely match screen-used boots.
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Boots have conservative or no heels at all. Flat soles are most accurate.
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If zippers are present, they appear on the inner part of the boot shaft only.
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The toe of the boot is rounded, not in a square, rounded, or pointed style
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The top of the boots are flat style, not Spanish, Cowboy, or Superhero.
For level two certification (if applicable):
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Boots have a zipper on the inner shaft.
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Soles are flat, similar to FO TK and TI soles.
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Seams and design must match screen-used boots.
Gloves, First Order, Black
For 501st approval:
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Gloves are constructed of a non-textured, black leather or leather-like material.
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Enclosed fingers.
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Gloves are gauntlet length, fitted, and worn underneath the sleeves.
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No buckles, straps, etc.
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Gloves may have stitching detail on the back of the palm similar to First Order Lieutenant for basic approval.
Belt, First Order
For 501st approval:
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The belt is constructed from a black, non-textured leather or a leather-like material.
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Approximately 2-2.5" in width, by 4.5-5” in length is acceptable. Belt band is not at all wider than buckle.
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Belt must fit snugly over the natural waist of the wearer.
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There are no loops on the belt.
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No sizing holes should be visible.
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The buckle is constructed from a horizontally brushed metal, or metal-looking material.
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Buckle is free of decoration, greeblies or insignia.
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Buckle is rectangular, with sharp-angled edges, approximately 5 1/4" (13.3 cm) long & 2 1/2 high (6.35 cm).
For level two certification (if applicable):
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Belt is made of leather.
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Buckle is made of a brushed metal such as aluminium.
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Buckle has a slight horizontal curve.
Rank Insignia, First Order
For 501st approval:
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Rank consists of one black band sewn down to the sleeve with white piped/embroidered edges at the top and bottom.
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Aurebesh text dependant on rank is to be embroidered, hand sewn, or applied via vinyl transfer to the center of the band. The text options are:
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“Tarkin” for Major
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“Kaplan” for Colonel
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Bar should be worn on the left side of arm, just above the wrist cuff seam and below the elbow.
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It should be invisibly stitched down to the sleeve in full, or adhered securely using iron-on patch adhesive. The bar should not appear loose.
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Major and Colonel costumes do not have a First Order emblem patch on their sleeves.
For level two certification (if applicable):
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Aurebesh text is machine embroidered in white thread matching the edge piping/embroidery discussed above.
First Order Officer Hat, Teal
For 501st approval:
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The hat's brim is a black leather, or leather-like material protruding from the front bottom of the dome. It is slightly curved in shape and does not obscure the wearer's eyes.
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The dome fits snugly on the head when worn and should cock slightly back like a baseball cap.
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It is fitted to the head and does not cover the ears.
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There is a tall flap which runs around the back of the hat, snugly fitting around the dome at the back and at both sides.
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The flap piece is not higher than the dome of the hat, and does not overly flex outward. It is effectively vertical in respect to the rest of the hat, and when viewed from the side, it's edges are tilted slightly back at an angle.
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The First Order emblem is centered in the front of the hat's dome. It is black and silver. The silver areas should have a metallic finish.
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The hat is made of the same teal fabric as the tunic and pants, with suitable interfacing or buckram as to give it the correct shape and stiffness.
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The dome has a subtly curved seam separating the front panel from rest of the hat, with a similar seam on the back section of the dome, with one vertical seam running down the dome's back.
For level two certification (if applicable):
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First Order insignia is a silver/nickel metal pin with a slight brushed finish and black enamel paint. It should be centered in the front of the hat's dome. It is approx 1 1/2" wide & 1 3/4" tall.
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The hat’s brim is leather. Its finish matches that seen in reference images.
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Hat features topstitching on either side of seams on the side and back panels of the hat as well as on the panels at the seam where they meet the dome, but not upon the dome itself. The front dome features top-stitching only at the lower edge where it meets the brim.
Optional Accessories
Items below are optional costume accessories. These items are not required for approval, but if present appear as described below.
Officer's Blaster, First Order
For 501st approval:
· Based on a replica Glock 19 repeating pistol, scratch-built with added greeblies, or a modified commercial replica is acceptable.
· Details to be painted black and silver per reference photos.
- Tentayena, sundancekat, Obiwanbologna and 4 others
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Hi there
Which back seam is this? for a tunic or a coat? I presume for the general's uniform? -
Hmm... Blaster is the one piece I don't have myself just yet. I'm probably going to be working with some 3D printer friends to get mine sorted out. :S There might be files out there, possibly on shapeways? There might be sellers on Etsy too! It's not a very popular blaster BUT its the same as the First Order Stormtrooper blaster, just painted up differently, so you might have more luck searching for a kit for one of those!
EDIT: you're specifically wanting the pistol/sidearm blaster, not the full rifle XD -
Ahoy! "First Order" has been mentioned enough to catch my attention.
It's like Beetlejuice, say it enough and I'll probably appear, lmao!
My best advice for anyone starting a First Order build is to get out there and research all of the components you're going to need. For soft parts, I personally recommend Vanya Yount at Rattle And Burn (On Facebook) as their quality is impeccable. They do a full package, pants, tunic, hat, belt, so you'll only need to supply your own gloves and boots. Their prices are entirely reasonable too, considering the quality. I believe they might be booked up for a few months so drop them a line on Facebook and see what the timescales are like right now. They also use the closest approximation to the screen used fabric to make their uniforms, and offer greatcoats too if you wanted to go the whole hog. (Hat and coat are not requirements for submission but good to have imo).
Boots I can only recommend Imperial Boots. They take orders in waves, so get in on the next batch as soon as you can. They're a bit pricey but they're the only solid option out there for First Order right now, short of commissioning a custom pair yourself or making them (and them being up to scratch).
Gloves you'll need gauntlet length (so a few inches longer than your wrist) plain black leather gloves. I don't think anyone has managed to pin down a proper, reliable source for these yet, we're all just finding them where we live locally. I personally am using a pair of "Autograph" range Marks and Spencers gloves, but this is a store native to the UK so I'm unsure of availability outside of the UK. They just need to be black, leather, plain with no stitching or embellishment, and long enough to bypass your wrist by an inch or so and show no skin when worn with the jacket.
If you're just going generic General then make sure your hair is neat and tidy and you're clean shaven for your submission photos! If you're after Hux specifically, best bet would be to cut and style your hair, dying if needed, but I appreciate that's really permanent.... Again, there are no solid answers for a wig and sideburns to buy and style, but if you check out facebook again there is at least one group dedicated to Hux and First Order costuming which I recommend all interested parties join up. It's a little bit of a shippy hive at times, but it's got the largest pool of information and resources that I've ever seen so far!
I hope this helps! My costume was around 5+ months of research and development, trying stuff out, and even then there aren't any solid "go to" fixes for a lot of it outside of Rattle and Burn. Let us know how you get on!
EDIT: As with all things! As you're going, I HIGHLY RECOMMEND running all purchase decisions past your GML. NOTHING Is a guarantee for clearance. <3 -
I've been fiddling with a CRL draft building on the original proposed by Raphael on page three, supported by a lot of the text and details from the upcoming Mitaka/Lieutenant CRL to promote consistency across the First Order CRL's. I'm pretty confident in it, and I'm just waiting on tailor input and input from a few other Intense First Order Nerds (in some places both <3) before I feel comfortable dropping it in here. I want to make sure that some of the "calls" I've made are agreed upon/also spotted by other people (the more eyes on this the better) and also I want to ensure that all technical language and descriptors are accurate and easy to understand (if you're a tailor or understand How Do To An Google).
Watch this space! <3
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On 18/11/2017 at 10:43 AM, Paggeldiwwer said:
The First Order Generals do not have any visible topstitching which should be added to the basic approval conditions. Or can one imagine a Hux with topstitched princess-seams?
Top stitching on the princess seams is a point of contention amongst "The Huxes" XD
Some people see it, some don't. It's there in some images, and not in others.
If anything (Much the same as the second set of arm seams on the sleeves) I for one think it should be optional. "Sleeves -may- have additional seams" and "front (cannot confirm if rear have top stitching for the life of me..) princess seams may have very subtle top stitching, very close to the seam". So if you personally believe in and want those details in your costume, you can have them, and should not be penalised for clearance if they are added well. They're very hard to pin down/see/prove.If you can only see a detail in a brief glimpse in one scene which you need to blow the contrast up to get a better look at, I'm honestly not sure it should be a costume requirement at all, let alone at higher levels.
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Those screengrabs match up with what I think the general consensus is with regards to how it works from behind, seam-wise! It's such a drastic change from Lt and General, lol.
I can only presume that the boots would be the same as all other First Order officers, I don't think we see any in the visual dictionary without the same boots? Gloves look plain on those models with no details on the back, but that might just be a result of the low-res textures due to it being a mobile game. The boots have lost their details too. -
I have never even heard of these! I'd presume off-duty or non-canon troops only. :s
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Love this shot! I'm also just gonna admire that Jyn for a bit too, great costumes on you both!
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Tiny, useless First Order tinfoil-hat moment... but...
I'm finding the fact that the designs are leaning -AWAY- from the Imperial Officer designs we're used to.. and some of the First Order elements are starting to appear?
General and Lieutenant First Order uniforms have the same combo of centre-back seams with princess seams.The front closure angle-change which was highlighted, reminds me a LOT of the teal colonels/majors in the First Order, whose costumes look the most like Imperials with the cross-over front closure. It fastens ON the chest, with a smooth swoop, rather than a closure that follows the line of the collar and fastens on the shoulder.
Also the rank bars are getting smaller, code cylinder pockets (however impractical the design here is.. if it's even possible!) are getting smaller, possibly the beginning of phasing them out?Lack of modesty panel on the collars could be an oversight since they don't have to worry about fabric misbehaving of its own accord as it would in real life. They can just "keep the collars closed" and behaving through manipulating the models if need be during closeup animations.
I would LOVE more images of the Admiral's pants, too. The shape looks a heck of a lot more First Order than previous Imperial iterations. More, baggy/puffy around the thigh than the standard flare shape? I dunno.At the very least it's possible some thought has gone into these designs and their changes, with a view to bridging the gap between the OT movies and what we end up with in TFA? Since all of this is around the end of ROTJ and beyond? Very interesting!
It's also possible that the designers here were piggybacking off the hard work put into Krennic's design, making something iconic and recognisable without having to come up with something new. The rank plaque and code cylinders that make little sense but evoke "Krennic" and therefore "probably important"? Cheap and easy visual queues, someone already did the hard work through all the marketing for Rogue One to spread the image around!
I'll admit I'm not a fan of how loose his collar is! There's scads of room there! Yikes. -
5 minutes ago, StickWaver said:
Unfortunately, this is their custom size - I went back and checked, and they botched the length. I've been sitting on this costume for a while and while I've contacted them, I'm not sure that they'll care to do anything. I am hesitant to order another tunic from them, and may just go local if I need to replace. But, it won't hurt so we'll see what happens!
If it's their mistake definitely press for a replacement! It's a heck of a mistake to make and it is more likely to harm your chances of clearing than not.
I'm not even sure you could sell it on to recoup the loss. Let us know how you get on!
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Yikes! I'm sorry to hear that you've had a CosplaySky issue. :C
I actually have a friend who had a similar sort of problem, but I think his waist seam was in a reasonable location? The tunic just was a little shorter than he would have preferred.... didn't come down as far as he'd have liked.
In his case, it was suggested that maybe he request some of the same tunic fabric from CosplaySky (They do actually sell their own uniform fabric, so that you can make alterations and make your own hats and such to match!) and he could try to remake the lower panels and extend everything himself. Bit of a nightmare.... and it wouldn't solve your waist seam issue.
In your instance, I'd worry that the high waist seam, which wouldn't be covered by a belt, might hold you back from clearance. It depends on how picky your GML would be, or if they'd notice?
CosplaySky do take custom orders. It's unfortunate, since it's another cost to pay... but you could show them these photos, give your measurements, and they can try to tailor something for you personally? Was this a custom job from them or was it a stock size? -
For the tunic, this is mentioned:
- There are two vertical seams on the front and back on a third of the shoulder.
I'm unsure what is meant by this?
If it helps at all, the additional footage we got from Rian Johnson, featuring a snippet of Finn and Rose in uniform, showed us the rear seams a little. Straight seams to match the front. Since this tunic is very reminiscent of Imperial Officer uniforms, I wouldn't be surprised if those seams reach down to the waist and beyond to the lower hems at the rear. The collar doesn't appear to have any visible seams, and will be well-fitted, part of the rear panel and the front two (front right panel and front yoke which crosses across the chest)
As for the gloves. I struggled to find any information at all about this, and all the footage and reference of Datoo is useless. Hux/Generals have plain non decorated gloves, while Mitaka/Lt's have three stitches at the back. Might be a wait and see on that one!
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Rank bands and seams:
There is a short cuff on the teal uniforms. Unsure how it compares to Generals, as they have a 4inch ish cuff. There is also potentially some topstitching or a very, very thin strip of piping around that cuff edge? It looks like it goes sleeve -> seam -> piping?topstitching? -> cuff.
if you check out the opposite side. It looks like embroidery to me BUT I entirely agree that piping is acceptable for Level 1/basic. The band also appears above the weird topstitching/piping strip. That could also just be the bottom of the embroidered rank bar, like the black edge?
Aesthetically, the grey Lieutenant uniforms, and the Generals, have their rank bands above the cuff seam. The teal rank bars appear to be exactly the same, which makes sense. -
On 10/11/2017 at 10:20 AM, Rhaethe said:
Hrrmm. No change planned to General and Hux. The General and Hux do match each other and your proposed text for boots, but do not match the as yet unpublished Lieutenant, which is what I have read most often and recently. That is something I will correct and reconcile on my end. I am personally not as fond of allowing equestrian for FO L1, but it is by no means something I am hung on that makes me lose sleep.
I do prefer consistency.
Other notes we have from when another tailor and the LMO team spoke about this costume when the pics of Rose Tico in one came out are below.
1. We are not likely to say "Gabardine is most accurate". Instead, we'll simply say that the material is a medium to heavy weight suiting material.
2. The color teal is believed to be Prussian Blue. You do not want to get too green with this teal.
First of all, yay for teal officers! Can't wait to see more about this.
Secondly, Mitaka/Lt's CRL is, in my opinion, the most up to date and accurate First Order CRL, utilising a tonne of information and references which were not available when Hux and the subsequent General (Hux's CRL, minus appearance stipulations tbh) was released.
We've nipped and tucked at Hux, to bring it more in line with an acceptable level of accuracy since release, but oh BOY is there still a lot of work to do there. I would request if possible, that Mitaka's upcoming CRL be the "benchmark" for First Order officer uniforms, over the existing CRL's for Hux and the General which have a large number of inaccuracies and poor wording issues.
The uniforms do have very striking differences from one rank to the other.. frustratingly... but there are very definite aesthetic and construction similarities which run throughout the First Order as a whole. Mitaka's CRL is super-solid and I'm far less anxious it be used as a base for first draft for Major, than the existing Hux.(I'd also like to request Hux and the General go through a series of changes to bring those CRL's more in line with Mitaka/Lieutenant, but that's a discussion for another time.)
Definitely following this one. -
More Star Wars yaaaaas!
I for one am getting rather fond of StarWarsChristmas a week or so before ActualChristmas and I'm totally fine with keeping the new tradition around. -
2 minutes ago, lantern2745 said:
The Thrawn armor has been out there for well over a year and from what Ron said, the discussion over at ACD has been dormant since April.
I don't think they have any strong desire to "take" em.
Plus as Cari said already, the LMO has no interest in making a new CRL (in any detachment) where an optional accessory to an existing CRL is simpler and more sensible.
I know you added a smiley at the end, and I take it to mean you're teasing a bit, but talk of inter-detachment isn't productive.
As Governor Tarkin said, "This bickering is pointless."
I was joking, apologies. I honestly don't think there'll be a "fight" on anyone's hands, if there has been no activity over there/drive to adopt it.
I suppose we just need to motivate some folks over here into making and submitting!
1st Order Majors and Colonels
in New CRLs
Posted
It's useful to use some of what we see in TLJ for the major/colonel, however TLJ costumes have several key differences to the TFA costumes from what I can see.
- Different scale and design of hat pin
- finish on the brims of the hats are different
- rose has a ton more seams than Datoo/Kaplan in TFA, particularly around the neck
I'd suggest having a list of changes to the TFA costumes picked out and specified as TLJ configurations or differences or something once the TFA CRL's are set up, since they're different costumes in my eyes. Even Finn and DJ's grey uniforms have differences, the hats again and also MASSIVE chunky epaulette boards. The fabric of the costumes themselves looks lighter, slightly lighter grey. TLJ helps fill in some of the blanks, but the "blanks" we were missing were only really "what does it look like from behind?" and we had a fairly good guess.