GDMorti

hard to tailor a uniform for them tho.

That's why i'm making a purrgil plushie hat to wear, so it looks like it's nomming my head  

How the variables are handled looks fine to me. And the variables even get their own pictures, labelled to show the difference? That's brilliant, and actually better than how every other IOC CRL containing variables is doing it at the moment. Best example being the Line/Staff officer Code Cylinders. Four separate types are listed there as myself and others have mentioned, no pictures like this.

Thank you!!!

-Bump-

Still waiting on staff to answer this entire thread's query and direct how to proceed here. Don't we have a CRL deployment officer this year

Yep, that was a lot of the discussion on the other pages, that the imperial cadets we saw in Rebels were specifically for vehicular or trooper stuff and technically the comic is our first real look at officer cadets.

The existing CRL is pretty thorough, the only gripe is that the interpretation from animation is that the 'belt' looking thing is applied as the hem/band on the bottom of the jacket, and in the comic its very much drawn as a belt. But, that should be easy enough to word around and make everyone happy and accurate

Thank you Dawn! Much appreciated, the indecision has been holding back the build  I'm hype to be a low-ranking Thrawn.

Done
 
 
Also added the back seam.
 
Thanks guys! 

How the variables are handled looks fine to me. And the variables even get their own pictures, labelled to show the difference? That's brilliant, and actually better than how every other IOC CRL containing variables is doing it at the moment. Best example being the Line/Staff officer Code Cylinders. Four separate types are listed there as myself and others have mentioned, no pictures like this.

Tarkin (and Thrawn, and Hux) have come up a couple of times in this thread. I'm unsure why I'm clarifying myself again.

If we were talking about creating a Tarking, or a Thrawn, or a Hux, for the very first time, brand new. Yes I would probably be saying "we need a Generic CRL for their uniform, and then make that hero face character an optional appearance specification."

But they already exist, and people would lose their minds if we removed them, or merged them, so we aren't suggesting that. What I'm saying is, my logic here absolutely would apply, I think, to those "hero" characters. BUT they already exist, so they are unfortunately exempt.

We made a generic Lieutenant and not a Mitaka (we made a Hux and then a Generic General and we thought Mitaka would go the same way) is to avoid uneccessary clutter of CRL's for a facial specification. Dawn has already said, if this was PURELY down to facial specification, without any question Hask would not get his own CRL. Can we stop going round in circles with this point?
 
See above.

There are so many instances of CRL's being combined or including variables/options that I really cannot see why this situation should be treated any differently. It's two or three extremely minor differences.

A CRL containing "And/Or" to differentiate between a handful of differences, accessories, construction methods etc has worked fine for plenty of IOC CRL's. For this to suddenly be something we start to do, I cannot understand.

Taking facial specifications completely out of the equation of course, and focusing solely on costume differences. That is the crux of this argument.

Imperial Cadet. Optional Helmet Accessory:
 
Helmet Open faced style helmet consists of a dome and a faceplate. Made of plastic, resin or fiberglass. Dome and Face plate are painted white. Dome Requirements are as follows: Has the following options: Regular Imperial Cadet without markings on the Dome. Jai Kell: With blue markings and corresponding patterns. Zare Leonis : With yellow markings and corresponding patterns. Oleg: with green markings and corresponding patterns. (2) black vent rectangles with one curved side pointing to the middle of the helmet above the eyes. Face plate Requirements are as follows: Face plate is white, matching the same color as the dome. Eye sockets meet in the middle and use a flat dark lens. Black frown runs across the front and angles upward at each side. Two black vent squares are present underneath each eye. There are two round "Air Filtration Nozzles", one on each side of the mouth, with (5) black vent lines. (3) spaced in the middle between them. (Two vertical and one Horizontal) (2) on top of the nozzles (one on each). 

Three characters wear their helmets with very obvious visual differences. Did they all get a CRL? No.

I could honestly do this all day.

Holding Hask up to Luke Skywalker is a bit of a reach don't you think? XD

Separate CRL's creates a bunch of work when we come to amend something. Hux underwent a huge overhaul and was vastly improved. That was a while ago and the Generic General is still sat as it was, so now if someone wanted to clear a General they would be held to a different standard as someone wanting to clear specifically a Hux when its the same costume??

How the variables are handled looks fine to me. And the variables even get their own pictures, labelled to show the difference? That's brilliant, and actually better than how every other IOC CRL containing variables is doing it at the moment. Best example being the Line/Staff officer Code Cylinders. Four separate types are listed there as myself and others have mentioned, no pictures like this.

How the variables are handled looks fine to me. And the variables even get their own pictures, labelled to show the difference? That's brilliant, and actually better than how every other IOC CRL containing variables is doing it at the moment. Best example being the Line/Staff officer Code Cylinders. Four separate types are listed there as myself and others have mentioned, no pictures like this.

Welcome.  I get the desire to have them separate, but I don't think it's enough of a difference to warrant it.

Bottom line, we shouldn't be looking to the past but what we want to do going forward.  Do we want to be CTD with 500 CRL's based on a slight color change or different rank bar or different holster combination, or do we want to say "they're called uniforms for a reason, they're uniform" and note that there are on screen differences based on rank, and any of those differences are valid.

And then only have specific CRL's for the true oddballs - Issard, Krennic, Erso, etc.  (No, I don't think Dalla or Tarkin should have been a separate CRL, but what's done is done.)

thank you for describing this to me, i am going to go in and look at that CRL maybe it will help me with this cause using Krennic isnt enough help. :/

I get the worry, Dawn, but I respectfully disagree - look at line and Staff officers, there are so many "if you're doing this then this" buts in them that if we're going this route we're making a ton more work for ourselves to split up CRLs because they could be confusing.  Even the Bridge Crew with this bit:

 
Summary of L2 requirements:
All movie versions may or may not have belt boxes. ANH: No gloves or compad, has no code cylinders, no headset. ESB: Same as ANH, but with 3 code cylinders and may wear a headset. ROTJ: Has gauntlets and compad, but no code cylinders or headset

Tarkin (and Thrawn, and Hux) have come up a couple of times in this thread. I'm unsure why I'm clarifying myself again.

If we were talking about creating a Tarking, or a Thrawn, or a Hux, for the very first time, brand new. Yes I would probably be saying "we need a Generic CRL for their uniform, and then make that hero face character an optional appearance specification."

But they already exist, and people would lose their minds if we removed them, or merged them, so we aren't suggesting that. What I'm saying is, my logic here absolutely would apply, I think, to those "hero" characters. BUT they already exist, so they are unfortunately exempt.

We made a generic Lieutenant and not a Mitaka (we made a Hux and then a Generic General and we thought Mitaka would go the same way) is to avoid uneccessary clutter of CRL's for a facial specification. Dawn has already said, if this was PURELY down to facial specification, without any question Hask would not get his own CRL. Can we stop going round in circles with this point?
 
See above.

There has been a lot discussed on both sides of this subject. And it appears we've now apparently resorted to personal attacks, digs and aggressive tones. Yet I'm being accused of being arrogant or dismissive? If people can't voice their opinions and thoughts on a subject they feel passionate about, -AGAIN-, in this detachment without fear of being browbeaten etc then democracy is dead. If other points of view are not going to be welcomed and taken into consideration, decisions made without consultation of the members etc, then what is the point of any of this. I've already said that everything going on in here is just words. I've previously said that I accept the LMO's rulings, I'm not doing this to convince anyone, or "to win". I would just like my opinion to be noted in the decision making process.

I stand by every word I have said here. Plenty of past evidence of CRL's permitting variants exists, including our two staples, Staff and Line.
 
The only reason I could see for two separate CRL's to exist in this situation, when one would perform the job extremely adequately, would be purely out of desire to see it happen. No logic and no other reason. GML's have been working from CRL's covering and including variants for years.

Evening everyone!

As the build thread for this particular costume here on the IOC is wrapping up, I think it's time we resurrect the CRL discussion. I've been Kris' armourer over on his UKG WIP thread and have done a ridiculous level of research into the costume to make sure I could give informed and adequate advice and assistance. That in  mind, I'd like to make the following proposal on the CRL's text.

This text takes into account several things:
- Kris' original CRL text proposed in the beginning of this thread.
- A large amount of research undertaken by myself, of which I am happy to provide details and references of should any part of the text need proving, elaborating upon, or rewording. I've made several suggestions towards reasonable (imo) Level 2/3 standards but accept that things are moved around by LMO's as part of their formatting and overseeing of the CRL process.
- The fact that I strongly and firmly believe that the Battlefront 2 First Order uniform should be a sole, singular CRL.

This would make the costume available to those who wish to make a generic, to those who wish to portray male or female BF2 FO officers, and to those specifically wanting to portray Hask. It is additionally worth noting that Battlefront 2 (the game) could at any point start to offer players the ability to customise their multiplayer "generic" FO officer further. A "generic" male body type may be made available. It's possible that they fully remodel another male body however my money is on them using Hask's, as it already exists. This would mean that both "male" and "female" versions of the uniform would exist. Yes the female model used as the generic multiplayer at present has differences to Hask, however there are two differences, and they are extremely minor. One of them is a fitting issue, regarding the location of the princess seams on the front of the tunic (you see the same differences between male and female First Order officers in TLJ). It's already come up in this thread previously, that Hask himself could easily be an appearance configuration for this CRL, which would then immediately open the costume up to all men, women, -and- those who particularly want to portray Hask.

Being as this has been handed over several times in this thread as "an LMO decision" I'd like to invite our LMO Liason to weigh in! @Hux

Without further ado, the text (I'm sorry it's mostly lumped to the left, I can't figure out how to copy it in and remove that without losing all my formatting!):

-----------------------------------------------------------------
 
Battlefront 2 - First Order Uniform
  Code Cylinders, First Order
For 501st approval:
Four (4) code cylinders, two on each side of the tunic
Cylinders are smooth tubes, with a lip at the top and an indented bottom
Cylinders are 85-90mm (approx 3.5 inches) long
There is a metal clip attached to the top, extending approx one third of the way down the cylinder
Both cylinders and clips are silver in color
For level two certification (if applicable):
Real (with modifications) or Replica Russian Dosimeters are used
For level three certification (if applicable):
Dosimeter clips are designed and bent in a manner that matches in-game references
Dosimeter tubes are of adequate thickness, as per in-game references
Officer Boots, First Order, Black
For 501st approval:
Knee-high, black, lace-less, smooth non-textured, leather or leather-like material, with moderate to high-gloss shine
Rubber rain boots or wellington boots are not acceptable
PVC or synthetic material is allowed as long as it gives the appearance of leather
There are no stretch panels, buckles, snap tabs, or decoration
Boot seams must closely match screen-used boots
Boots have conservative or no heels at all. Flat soles are most accurate
If zippers are present, they appear on the inner part of the boot shaft only
The toe of the boot is rounded, not in a square, rounded, or pointed style
The top of the boots are flat style, not Spanish, Cowboy, or Superhero
For level two certification (if applicable):
Boots have a zipper on the inner shaft
Soles are flat, similar to FO TK and TI soles
Seams and design must match those of in-game boots
Belt, First Order
For 501st approval:
  Belt strap is constructed from a plain, black, non-textured leather or a leather-like material
A buckle approximately 4.5inches x 2inches is acceptable
The belt strap is the same width/height as the buckle
Belt strap length must fit snugly over the natural waist of the wearer
There are no loops on the belt strap
The buckle is constructed from a horizontally brushed metal, or metal-looking material
Buckle is free of decoration, greeblies or insignia
Buckle is rectangular, with sharp-angled edges
For level two certification (if applicable):
Belt is made of leather
Buckle is made of a brushed metal such as aluminium
There are no sizing holes
Buckle has a slight horizontal curve, matching the curve of the belt strap when worn

Gloves, First Order, Black
For 501st approval:
Gloves are constructed of a non-textured, black leather or leather-like material
Enclosed fingers
Gloves are gauntlet length, fitted, and worn underneath the sleeves
No buckles, straps, ect
Gloves are plain on the back of the palm with no visible stitching or details
 
For level two certification (if applicable):
Gloves are leather
Rank Insignia, First Order
For 501st approval:
Worn on the left sleeve only, positioned just above the cuff seam line
Rank Insignia consists of either:
- A single plain black band with two thin white bands on the outer edges, and is fully attached to the sleeve
 
- Two plain black bands bisected by a straight seam, with white bands on the top edge of the upper band, and the bottom edge of the lower band. Rank insignia is fully attached to the sleeve
The thin white bands can be white piping or white embroidery
Insignia is invisibly stitched down to the sleeve in full, or adhered securely using iron-on patch adhesive. The bar should not appear loose
For level two certification (if applicable):
The top and bottom white bands on the rank insignia are machine embroidered
The seam for the rank band matches exactly with the seam of the sleeve
  First Order Officer Hat
For 501st approval:
The hat's brim is a black leather, or leather-like material protruding from the front bottom of the dome. It is slightly curved in shape and does not obscure the wearer's eyes
The dome fits snugly on the head and cocks slightly back like a baseball cap
It is fitted to the head and does not cover the ears
There is a tall flap which runs around the back of the hat, snugly fitting around the dome at the back and at both sides
The flap piece is not higher than the dome of the hat, and does not overly flex outward It is effectively vertical in respect to the rest of the hat, and when viewed from the side, it's front edges are tilted slightly back at an angle
The First Order emblem is centered in the front of the hat's dome. It is black and white/silver
The hat is made of a sturdy, grey suiting fabric exactly matching the pants and tunic, with suitable interfacing or buckram as to give it the correct shape and stiffness
The dome has a subtly curved seam separating the front panel from rest of the hat, with a similar seam on the back section of the dome, with one vertical seam running down the dome's back
For level two certification (if applicable):
First Order insignia is centered in the front of the hat's dome. It is approx 1 1/2" wide & 1 3/4" tall
Hat features topstitching on either side of seams on the side and back panels of the hat as well as on the panels at the seam where they meet the dome, but not upon the dome itself. The front dome features top-stitching only at the lower edge where it meets the brim
The hat’s brim is leather. Its finish matches that seen in reference images
Tunic, First Order Officer
For 501st approval:
Fabric is a medium weight, smooth, grey suiting material exactly matching the pants
Tunic is fitted
The front closure may use wide hook and eye closures
Sleeves are long, and without decoration, folded cuffs or buttons. There are cuff seam lines on both lower sleeves below the rank band and a visible seam line separates the sleeve from the straight cuff portion, which is approximately 4.5 - 5.5”
First Order Commander rank insignia is fully sewn down on the left arm only
The collar is snugly fitting, classic-style, and has a visible closure panel across the front of the neck.  Closure panel may attach to the side of the neck by Velcro, hook and eye, or any closure that does not interfere with the look of the collar
There are princess seams on the front and the back, the rear seams running from shoulder blades to bottom hem
The chest princess seams turn at a sharp 90-degree angle at the bottom of the code cylinder panels, running back toward the side seam and finishing 3-4” below the armpit; The 90-degree angle of this seam is the closest point to the opening at the front of the tunic, and is around 2-2.5” from the center opening
There are two code-cylinder loops on either side of the chest and each loop is around 65mm (2.5 inches) long. The code cylinder loops can either:
- Fit within the chest seams described above, as per in-game reference. (Suggested for male officers.)
- Fit outside of the chest seams described above, as per in-game reference. (Suggested for female officers.)
There are four seams on the front of the tunic below the belt. Two either side of the belt buckle
There is no no vertical seam down the center of the back
The tunic does not have pockets
There is a single arm seam, beginning at the rear princess seam on the back, and finishing at the wrist. The seam runs through the cuff
The tunic does not feature epaulettes, nor a First Order insignia patch
There is a deep vent at the rear of the tunic
Tunic may have a waist seam, hidden at all times beneath the belt when worn. This waist seam will allow for much easier placement of accurate front seams below the belt, and an accurate vent at the rear of the tunic below the belt.
For level two certification (if applicable):
Tunic has a suitable amount of gathered material at the rear (lower back, belt level) and sleeves to create the same visual appearance as in-game references Jodphur Trousers, First Order Officer
For 501st approval:
Fabric is a medium weight grey suiting material exactly matching the tunic
Flared riding breeches have subtle, semi-stiff flares in the hip/thigh area, below the tunic and above the knee
Pockets and waist belts are acceptable, although are not visible with the tunic on
Stirrups may be attached to the leg bottoms to keep material tightly tucked into the boots
There is a fold on the legs creased from back to front, directly below the jodphur flares, tucking tightly into the boots, over the knees
For level two certification (if applicable):
Trousers have a suitable amount of gathered material at the thigh (front and rear) to create the same visual appearance as in-game references Holster
Black in color and constructed from leather or leather like material
The holster is made from same material as the belt
Holster is constructed from a black leather/leather like material which hangs beneath the belt. There are no visible attachments to the rear of the belt, however a small silver buckle may be used to attach the holster beneath the main rectangular belt buckle at the front
There are no visible snaps, loops or clasps attaching the holster to the belt, outside of the silver attachment mentioned above
The holster begins low enough to extend several inches past the hem of the tunic
Holster is worn on the right-hand side of the belt
For level two certification (if applicable):
Holster is made of black leather
Holster is made from the same black leather as the belt
The silver clip behind and below the belt buckle must be present
Blaster
Accurate RK-3 blaster pistol, matching reference images from Battlefront 2
If 3D printed, concerted efforts are made to remove all visible 3D printer ridges and striations
For level two certification (if applicable):
Blaster has been appropriately and accurately weathered to match Hask’s in-game blaster model
Blaster has been painted and weathered so as to give the appearance of being made of metal. Alternatively, blaster is made of metal and has been suitably painted and weathered
Commander Hask Appearance/Configuration:
For 501st approval:
Hair is grey, combed back at the sides and top. Hair is neatly cut short in a military style
Dark coloured/grey stubble is present however facial hair should not be of beard length
A long, jagged scar runs from the center of the chin, up the left side of the face, narrowly missing the left corner of the mouth, finishing with puckered scar tissue on the  cheek
 
For level two certification (if applicable):
Hair is visibly greying.(remove if grey hair is basic level) Stubble also appears to be naturally greying, “salt and pepper” style Eyebrows are of similar colour and shape to in-game references Suitable stage makeup techniques and tools are utilized to create a believable facial scar which matches in-game references

I understand and support the L3 requirements to emulate a specific officer. You're entirely right, and it's a truth I came to terms with following the FO Lieutenant not being published as Mitaka. We cannot make a CRL for every officer, it'd be ridiculous. XD But as you say, you can specify even at basic if you so wish, just gives you a head start when you aim for levels two and three!

When you say: "If someone creates a costume for the FO/Battlefront Officer(Generic), we can explore that CRL as well."

That's essentially what we're discussing here. That there is only a Battlefront 2 First Order Officer CRL. That there should not be a Hask specific CRL.

If we take "extra configurations" out of the picture for a moment. I know they're a recent thing and they work really well IMO with Krennic etc but lets pretend they never existed and see how we used to deal with small variables in the same costume in the past. I'm looking at the Staff and Line officer CRLs. I hear what you're saying entirely in that they cover a -huge- pool of officers, named specifically and with their own little quirks from movie to movie. 
However. In all the years of those CRLs existing, they've served their purpose, and covered all the little differences between screen reference of the same uniform, adequately.

How the Line Officer CRL handles the visual differences in rank bars:

"Color quantity and combinations are determined by rank, and are appropriate to uniform type.
Examples: No Grand Moffs wear black uniforms with hats. Grand Admiral rank matches Grand Admiral uniform (etc.) "  
The same CRL handles -four- different variables in code cylinder:

Between 1 to 4 per costume may be worn.
Modified: silver "chalk holder" tube with short clip and blue colored top. Rod style: machined aluminum rod with flaring disc detail at top Dosimeter style: True Dosimeter with correct clip and blue top. Alternate Style: Silver clip with no blue top. 
It handles a very obvious visual difference in belt snap (a minor detail but a visible difference in placement, exactly the same as we're talking between Hask specifically and the Generic), but leaves it to the wearer to make that decision, allowing them to do whichever they like:

"A single large snap or rivet is visible approximately 1" (25.4 mm) from the buckle.
The belt may be worn with the snap to the right or left of the wearer." Everyone "gets" that they're the same uniform. But from officer to officer, movie to movie, there have been little changes here and there. One CRL has managed to cover a LOT of little differences here, and we've all be fine with it, and following these CRL's the costumes have managed to become the second most popular set of costumes in the Legion.

I have Light Blue and then Blue, Light Blue is very very turquoise. When I apply it, I squeeze some into a disposable cup and mix a few drops of blue into the light blue. The regular blue goes a looong way, so its like a couple drops of blue, and then if I want to do some harsh contour lines I add a couple drops more.

I definitely suggest though that you do get powders for contour and detail. I do an all over paint, and then slightly darken the paint and do my main contour (forehead, cheeks, beneath the jaw) but that is very stark, and will look like you've drawn lines on your face. Having powders to hilight, contour, and blend on top of those painted on stark contour lines makes for a much more natural look.
 
If you want that almost greenish tint that Rebels Thrawn has the NYX powders that were on my suggested list has a color that's suitable. Use that to blend out your contour and your color will be spot on (personally, I don't like to be green-tinted so I stay more turquoise blue)

For removal, get one of the removers that they sell on European Body Art, they're probably also on amazon, and are made specifically for Endura. I use Unveil, its the more gentle of the two. Its not like a normal makeup remover that you spritz on and things wipe right off, and it doesn't come with instructions, and I think thats where people struggle with removal. You spray your face, count slowly to ten, then massage it in to activate the makeup, before wiping. If you do that a couple times, you'll be un-blue very fast.  for non sensitive areas, like your neck or hands, witch hazel is very inexpensive and removes it.

I use disposable makeup sponge wedges for the all-over application, and then some cheap makeup brushes for detailing. E.L.F. brand has pretty good brushes, for a very low price, and are available at places like CVS or Walmart.


EDIT: also, since Rebels Thrawn CRL specifies hair is supposed to be blue now, not black like Legends, imo the easiest way to achieve that if you have short hair already is hair wax. You just work it into your hair like a styling product, and it'll tint you dark blue. Its also great to ensure you don't see any scalp, you never really think about how much of your scalp you can see through your hair at your hairline until your face is blue and your scalp is skintone and its extremely obvious. I like this brand https://www.amazon.com/KooJoee-Professional-Disposable-Temporary-Nightclub/dp/B076C1JJZR/ref=sr_1_2_a_it?ie=UTF8&qid=1523321089&sr=8-2&keywords=mofajang+hair+wax+blue

and BMK is also good, honestly I think they're the same item rebranded https://www.amazon.com/BMK-Hairstyle-Disposable-Temporary-Nightclub/dp/B076DWTWB3/ref=sr_1_9_a_it?ie=UTF8&qid=1523321049&sr=8-9&keywords=hair%2Bwax%2Bblue&th=1

It shampoos right out with no lasting color (unless you are naturally white-blond, in which case it may stain)

^What they said. There's evidence of other Grand Admirals, just not a lot of reference, but we have full of reference of Thrawn's clothes and that's all that's relevant. Plus if you be the first non-Thrawn new extended universe Grand Admiral, that would probably be its own CRL? Worth starting a thread to discuss when you start getting your costume together, whether Rebels style rank bars/belt would still apply, etc etc.

^Same, I actually already started last night. We were planning on just doing it for meme purposes at AwesomeCon and this thread was just sprung from the realization that the helmet is really not standard issue, I wasn't really planning on submitting it. Wouldn't be hard to write for though, it'd be 90% the other CRL with a few tiny tweaks.

@Hound thank you for giving us your perspective on it! much appreciated

It's not that Mitaka was different from other Lieutenants.
It's that TFA Lieutenants are different from TLJ Lieutenants. And TFA didn't even have Captains for us to base any judgement on. The CRL had "Captain" added and was released shortly after TLJ came out, without any input from the IOC as a whole, discussion, etc.

And I wasn't naming any names or wanting to go back to exactly what happened when the CRL came out, just highlighting that if one CRL can do the job for a uniform with such a big number of variants between movies (and ranks) why would this one be any different?

I'll see what I can do with regards to getting a model pull from BF2 of the Generic and more high quality references etc. Bear with!