KyloLyn

You’re half right there. I am irritated yes. But mostly by the double standards that are keeping a costume out of this legion. A costume that I myself would dearly love to do for the legion. I did state that way back in this thread. So not really to do with me knowing said costumer as much as people want to believe.

Edit to add:

No, I don’t begrudge any detachment for getting costumes approved. Any examples I’ve brought up, are not in hate of “these shouldn’t be part of the legion” - more in tone as “these are exactly why this costume SHOULD get approval”

If you have almost no references to a costume, you can say it is similar to another existing CRL and then fill in the gaps of your knowledge so you have a full costume CRL, even though you don't have complete photos of it.  

A good example of that is the new Sith Technician released the other day.  It is based off of the First order Gunner which is based off of the First Order Petty Officer.  only the Petty officer do we see the costume in back and in front....mostly.  So the leap is made that the Gunner is the same... and then the leap is made for the Sith Technician being the same.  

Those are guesses with the thought they would have a similar pattern.  

I predate the CRLs.  I’m starting my 18th year in the Legion in January.  
We made the best decisions with what we could see.  
When I see the picture of this outstanding costume, we should be asking people to prove how it’s NOT accurate.  
spoiler: they won’t be able to.  That makes it screen accurate.  The discussion should end right there since we aren’t going for “prop accuracy” like some of the amazing, but clinically insane (much love to you, Fetts!) Boba Fetts who track down original pieces and don’t use any reproduction pieces.  
 
Look at the ANH costumes.  Those F451 things, etc.  
The CRL can change.
We aren’t lowering our standards.  Nobody out there in the general public gives a crap about princess seams and most of them don’t couldn’t even tell you what they are.  Approximately 98% of all non legion people I’ve asked over the years done even realize Vader’s costume was different in every movie.  You think potential seams barely visible not shown on screen on the back of a costume is what’s gonna hurt the credibility and reputation of the legion? 
Not as much as this, quite frankly, “weird flex” attempt at elitist gate keeping.  
Are we doing this for us, or for them? 
Perfect is the enemy of good.  
 

No transparency
No consistency
No honesty
No integrity

This is the reason I’m so offended by the lmo’s on this. They literally have no reason beyond “because we said so!” But saying “no this is fine” for others.

I get that, but I’m getting so very sick and tired of “high levels of legion = behind closed doors” - this should be brought to the public eye as to how biased, unfair and dangerously arrogant the lmo’s have been abusing their position.

Sorry to say that, but if you read the complete creation of this CRL, you shouldn't have used the wording "half baked" in this context. It's a well researched costume based on all accessible references. The only thing not covered by references is the lower back. I personally raised this concern, but I'm fine with the approach Steph used. Should it be a showstopper then? Neither the written process demands references for all details nor did the handling of other CRLs by the LMOs indicate that. 

We/someone could reach out to Stella Atkinson (the assistant costume designer and name giver for the rankband) to get more information as Glynn Dilon suggested she could know more as I asked him via Twitter about the rankband last year (he deleted his replies). But I can't find any contact of her. 

People are more than within their rights to hold me accountable for my jab, I’ll take that on board.

But

We are still left here with very few answers to a mountain of questions, so how about rather than jabbing/defending, we actually get the answers we deserve?

The stated rules are deliberately there for interpretation and judgement call. So why have the lmo’s seen fit to green light the likes of the solo navy trooper and the galaxy’s edge figure of the mountain trooper, but NOT this one?

Why has this one been targeted for the nix list?

Thank you, very well said.  I think this is the crux of what is upsetting many of us here.  It isn’t  that a decision has been made that we don’t like, it is that the reason given is something that is frequently unevenly applied.

as @Hoda cited above, the reason for denying this costume is not a matter of policy, it is a judgement call. They are perfectly able to approve this by the rules provided there.
 
This is not a matter of accuracy. Accuracy is hitting your target, doing something to a standard.  This is about setting the standard when there is only so much information.  This is about assuming what would be on the lower back of this costume (we have references for the upper back).  So what would be on the bottom back of a uniform like this?  What can we infer?  A princess seam? A single seam? A part in the back like a suit jacket? Given that the suit is black on black even if we had a clear photo, we may not see it.  So we do what we do with every costume that we have no laid hands on: we guess.
 
This is nothing new, it has happened with most of our costumes and many popular ones.  We guess on colors, pockets no pockets, the nature of seams.  I have heard LMOs argue that their perception should take precedent over what things actually are.  Even when we get all of the details right, there are many questions on how it should look on different sized people, tall, short, thin, heavy, men, women.  That is why we have been engaging with tailors that make these things.  This way they can give an informed professional opinion on why something may be a certain way, not the opinion of someone who doesn't know what they are looking at.  If you are not making these costumes with your own hands, if you can't do that, your ability is limited.  That is not a failing, but an acknowledgement that not everyone can be all things.   

The 451 costume will be adjusted in the weeks to come.  As a consequence of this the Army Operations CRL may be delayed until those changes go through, because it is the exact same costume with a different colored tunic.  We get requests for adjustments to different costumes all the time.  And we look at the evidence.  Rarely is anything left to our interpretation.  If it is clear cut it is not our call to make, it is our duty to implement it.  The personalities of who are in offices should not govern this, evidence and precedence should govern how things are made and released.  The evidence is here in these earlier pages of the thread.  The precedence is here with other costumes with less info being released by this LMO office this year.
 
Development is a never ending process.  When we award someone a level 2 or 3 award, it is not saying they are perfect, it is saying they meet the highest requirements we have at this time.  That may irritate some people to hear that, but that is how it is.  We don't yank certifications if new details come out.  We even grandfather what they have cleared.  What changes are the details of the CRL.  And in many cases the changes are so minor that they would only affect level 2 or 3 anyway.

And that is what would likely be here with the Sith Eternal Officer.  Any new information would likely only affect a level 2 or 3.  This has happened many times before with many other costumes.  This is the history of the legion and how it has always been.  There are dozens of examples to illustrate this.

As for our head LMOs, I am sure they can answer for their offices.  They do not need others answering for them, especially when it is not members of their staff or that department defending their decision.  Even if their "staff" made this decision, it is because the head LMOs  that gave them the power to do so.  And therefore, the head LMOs that answer for it.  At the end of the day it is their policy and their responsibility.  There are questions that we would appreciate them answering.
 
 

I've not been following this buid in close detail, can I just summarise why it was rejected to to see if I'm understanding it correctly?  The crl was rejected by the LMO because:
 
- The LMO team should have been involved sooner.
Except that the LMOs were involved from the very beginning of this thread and have commented consistently.
 
- The costume should not have been made before the LMO team had given the crl a green light.
Except that whenever new crls have been asked about in the past the standard response from Kris (an LMO) has always been "someone has to build it first".
 
- There aren't clear reference shots of the back
Except this has never been a requirement that is applied evenly and, according to the actual wording (shared above), is not so much a requirement as a preference.
 
Anything else I'm missing?

We are archeologists.  Unless we get to hold and touch multiple copies of the same on screen costume, we go on the best information available.  We guess the fabric, the material, the color.  We guess how the costume goes together. (it was years before we figured out how officer jackets really went together.  most people for the longest time had a zip up jacket covered with a yoke).  Why does moff Jejerrod have two seams on his yoke and everyone else has two?  Why do the shuttle pilots for Darth Vader have 5 stitches on their hat brim and everyone else have 7 or more?  These questions only appeared in recent years.  The color of the cog on the TIE pilot helmet recently changed.  After all these years we just figured out what it really was?

I have seen people claim to be the guardians of accuracy when they wore costumes that were never on screen and we only learned that after the blurays and HD copies of the films came out.  I have seen them stand in the way of costumes being developed when their own first of a kind costumes missed pockets and shoulder boards.  The standards are very much NOT evenly applied.  The answer is a fair system that works.

Until the day comes where we get to partner with LFL and get to see the costumes top to bottom, in person and interact with the costume designers, we are archeologists giving our best theories.  And theories are replaced with better theories as new information comes out.  That is how it is and how it always has been.  Anyone that says otherwise is kidding themselves.
 
I am committed to developing relations with the costume designers so we can get the information (and hopefully the photos from the horses mouth).  But until that day comes where we have established those relationships we should act on the best information we have.  As we have in the past and as we do so today with other costumes approved now.

I attribute no malice to the decisions made, but members that focus more attention on armor and don't even know what a princess seam is are not the people who should be making these kinds of decisions.  They don't have the interest, the skill or the involvement.  The LMO team should be a vibrant diverse group and those that focus on these matters should have a weighted voice.
 
Not approving this IS a WRONG.  It is not a virtue.  Moving forward with the best information we have after a year and a half after the movie has been released is not a mistake.  It is overdue.  And I will support any LCO's LMO team that adopts that stance that we launch with the best information available and we adjust as new information comes out.

All five days at the Hyatt I believe. Bringing Governor Pryce, and various incarnations of Ren. This will be my second SWC, but my first being part of the legions.

Kylo Ren w/ helmet:  Darth Vader!
Kylo Ren w/o helmet:  Professor Snape! (I got Jon Snow once, but I blame standing next to GOT cosplayers for that)
Governor Pryce:  That lady from Crystal Skull!

Kylo Ren w/ helmet:  Darth Vader!
Kylo Ren w/o helmet:  Professor Snape! (I got Jon Snow once, but I blame standing next to GOT cosplayers for that)
Governor Pryce:  That lady from Crystal Skull!

All five days at the Hyatt I believe. Bringing Governor Pryce, and various incarnations of Ren. This will be my second SWC, but my first being part of the legions.