Rhaethe
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Posts posted by Rhaethe
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11 minutes ago, Mitthrawnuruodo said:
Is there an option for something like a "sub CRL"?
Yes, I agree that there is enough differences between the two versions that we should note them. But unless I'm misunderstanding the only difference is the tunics?
If that's correct, then couldn't we have "Tunic Style 1" and "Tunic Style 2" in the current CRL?
From my understanding there are other differences in the whole build, as well, such as silver Clips on the code-cylinders, a flat belt buckle and the oh so not-innocent single bar rank. I defer to those that have spent far more time in research of it.
That being said, there are things done from time to time called "accepted alternate configurations". Krennic has it. ISB has it. Gunner has it.
We don't like doing that a much, since some GML's find it too confusing, but it can be done. Depends on how its written.
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Just now, nocternus said:
Aint know one got time for those
No time for Commas? Uh huh
For looking at the code cylinder semantics? Sure there's time
Semantics mind you, not actual changing of reqs ... yeah, I got time for that. It gets put on the Punchlist.
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@nocternus I am going to send you a box of commas for your birthday one day
Anywho.
Can the chalk cylinders be made to look good ? Yes.
Then the applicant should be worked with and guided to how to make the things look good. GML's passing horrible looking chalkholders isn't the fault of the standard, per se`. Should the language used be looked at to help tighten the gap on what is a "bad" chalkholder and what isn't? Maybe, and worth consideration.
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Couple notes. How many folks agree that all black officers in ANH (including cheese grater wearing IN) had this style tunic?
If everyone does, and it is agreed to split off (not a foregone conclusion) ANH Staff, then ANH IN (from IN dress) would need to be split, as well.
As to the ISB / ANH - R1 method of addressing tunic construction, whether or not to split those up is under debate in LMO land, and has been for a bit.
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Updated October 8, 2017
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Am back.
That's fine. I did say that I am aware that there are many opinions held by folks, and often closely held. My flame retardant gear is not yet here, but I did order it.
I appreciate you looking out for me ... but, I got me
And I am far more willing to put in more levels of work than a jokingly/publicly tease about.
You do misunderstand me that I say that every Rebels character has to be a Face CRL. I said that characters from Rebels reference should not be lumped into the current generic. Further, I said that all the ones submitted and approved thus far have been specific Faces. I did mention that all of the Rebels Officers seem to have some fiddly differences from each other. Which is true. I feel that. That does NOT mean that I feel that those fiddly differences from each other prevent the creation of a Rebels Line generic.
The Rebels' costumes submitted thus far have been Pryce, Thrawn, and Rebels Staff based on Brom Titus. The last had some minor adjustments to make. Until it is resubmitted, it falls off my radar. Once it gets resubmitted, it will likely get accepted as "Rebels Staff Generic". If someone wants to submit a "Rebels Line Officer Generic' I welcome it. But someone has to make it.
Now. All that small diversion aside..
This one quote from earlier, on rankbars / uniforms: "If you are worried about EU showing up more, they can be filtered out if called for... and they have been."
I personally am not one that gets worried about that. I am helping other members (when not at the IOC) get an Imperial Army Trooper and Imperial Army Engineer CRL off the ground, after all.
I am aware however, that this Legion is wide, with many people, all with varying views and opinions on canonicity and what's right and not. And whilst its difficult to make everyone happy, I Believe I should make a good faith effort to blend these viewpoints as best as is able.
And thus this thread. I want to hear everyone's viewpoints before I go off and start making plans on how to audit and overhaul the current old CRL's.
Edited to add: We DO have a Rebels generic already ... "Imperial Cadet"
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I am going to repeat myself for emphasis:
from an LMO perspective, the Rebels' center back seam really is meaningless. And we don't require it for L1.
Even on Pryce, the only place that center seam is is on L2.
That being said.
I am less than happy to be called asinine for making the decision to make Rebels a seperate CRL series. Which was my decision alone.
Sooo, I am going to walk away for a bit.
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14 hours ago, lantern2745 said:
That may be a bit inside baseball... But my thoughts on the "official" measurement is thus: For now (as more movies are coming), the rank bars need to be sized to OT or R1. It can be reasonably assumed that any other reference (animated, comic book or video game) is based on one of those two film sources.
Getting back to "generic" officer CRLs and specifically referencing Rebels; When I'm trooping in my line officer uniform, I get called Admiral Konstantine all the time. I bear a more than passing resemblance to him. And I wanted to make a new CRL for it. Now I'm not so sure.
HOWEVER, it does seem silly to me that we NEED a new CRL for Rebels. Konstantine, Titus, or any other officer from Rebels. Nobody but us hardcore IOC folks will ever see the single seam down the back with yet another (but different) olive-ish colored uniform and say, "Oh you're from Star Wars: Rebels! because you have one vertical seam down the back of your tunic."
Hell, I'm happy when I troop my line officer and don't get some jack ass calling me a Nazi!
If I want to run an ESB admiral rank bar and four blue tips so I can say "Yes, I AM Admiral Konstantine" while wearing my OT line officer uniform, I should be able to - provided all the parts fit the "generic line officer" CRL.
In short, what I think we need (for level one AND two) is an official comprehensive "Use one of these rank bars" list. We have several that could be streamlined to fit the bill.
The code cylinder configuration (for one and two) should say "One to four may be worn. If only one, it is worn in the left pocket" much like it says now. And, "X Wing style is acceptable, but only in the Motti/Tagge configuration, with 2 X and one Dosimeter. Brass or silver clips are acceptable, but not co-mingled."
Level 3 should be where we get to the real hardcore stuff. Un-dyed belt edges go with ANH ranks and such.
I'm starting to ramble now. I'll bow out for a bit.
Rambling is fine! I ramble a lot!
To address the Rebels thing ... Right now, all we've had people try to replicate are Rebels' face characters specifically, so they tend to get a new CRL anyway. We could attempt to create a "generic Rebels" whatever, but my first thought is: I personally feel it would be an exercise in frustration. Like, it seems every single Imperial Officer character has at least one thing different from the others. No, I've not studied them all in detail to determine for sure. And I really don't want to talk about the olive that isn't olive-grey but is a weird painful olive-brown that Tarkin wears
I am open to discussion and thought on that, however, should someone actually produce a proposed "Rebels Generic Whatever". We've got on for Rebels Staff pending resubmission, so my pondering on it may get stepped up soon.
That being said, there are enough differences in Rebels officer appearances to warrant separate CRL's in my mind, and it has nothing to do with the seams and their placement. Not sure where that nugget came from, but from an LMO perspective, the Rebels' center back seam really is meaningless. And we don't require it for L1. even when present on the source, cause some don't have it. It's nice to have the CRL Model with one if it is present on the source, but even that isn't required. On the flip side, back princess seams, while most definitely not present in the source material, are perfectly ok if present. For L1. I would like to repeat myself more on that account as I have heard murmurings otherwise, which are not true.
The differences that *do* stand out to me are: the Reb rankbar has noticeably rounded corners, the belt has a distinctly different Imperial Disk on the buckle on the buckle and hat, and there is a distinct collar and hat insignia.
Certainly, one could say that all those differences could be addressed in L2/3 ... and just add in the Rebels specific rankbars, and disks as optional accessories maybe? I am less comfortable with that. Another LMO might have a different opinion, and take things in a different direction, if I am not around next year, but that one is mine
An after sleep edit made for clarification.
- GDMorti and lantern2745
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1 hour ago, buckrogersbarker said:
My list contains everything that is a verified reference from the canon sources and it cites those sources. And those cited dwarfs currently what is on the approved IOC list. Today we pick and choose what is allowed and discard what we do not like, even if it comes from the same sources.
The gaps that are speculation are listed too. I fully expect those to be ticked off with new material coming out every year.Can you put together a list (or have one already) that has all the canon citations without actually having any speculated gaps listed as well? Send it to me at rhaethe.501st@gmail.com if you would.
Also, define what you mean in this instance by canon citations ... as some folks' definition is different at times, and I wish to make sure I understand your meaning correctly.
Side note, not really relevant to the conversation: I LARPed. Not so much now because of time than I used to, but I used to. I would say the analogy you're meaning is more SCA, but eh
Anywho, steering things back into the original topic. Let's say, using the case of rankbars, that the generic catchall CRL of Imperial Staff Officer indeed accepts all sources since all source references were close enough to be considered identical. As it does currently. For the purposes of giving measurements (even approximate ones) for just L1 standards, what source (media, game, comic book) would be the acceptable one to use over the others? Or would it be conceivable that someone could fashion an average mean?
Or is that getting too much in the weeds?
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5 hours ago, Motoss said:
We're all aware how badly they screwed the bars up in Jedi
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I never thought I was posting some new revelation
Just seemed timely, appropriate, and went along with a conversation @Paggeldiwwer and I were having in another recent thread about costume designers (and artist / animators) being "of the debil". So figured I'd share my /sigh /headdesk moment
Whilst it may not have been the case then, I do believe that, now, at least one of them sits in a corner, cackling whilst making designs, thinking "Hee hee! Let's see how we can drive those costumers crazy THIS time!"
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So, I opened up my 2014 Original Trilogy Costumes book to look for something else (an A-Wing thing). And then I decided to skip over to the officers' pages, and my eye was caught by a line.
Costume designers are assuredly evil creatures
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Hmmmmmmmmmmmm .............
So the answer is, perhaps ... To analyze the source of a given costume and determine if it has significant divergence from the "generic ideal". If it does, it should get its own CRL. If it doesn't, then the generic applies. That would sort it out to a certain degree.
A specific costume with a specific source is pretty easy to do the method of heightening specifics for higher levels. The methodology behind higher levels for a catchall generic is a little more tricky to determine. For those who are not well steeped in the movies, and comics/games are their preferred media, movie specific L2/3 rules may be confusing. And vice versa.
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39 minutes ago, GDMorti said:
Knowing that there is a "private" or "closed" CRL discussion area, and that actions are taken from this area without a quick heads up, is concerning. :S This is probably old news for most but I'm learning as I go! No I'm not saying make everything open season across the detachment, but it will definitely prevent things like this from happening! Something like "Hi detachment, here is a proposal we've discussed for some time, here is our thinking and reasoning behind this, this change is due to go live in X unless anyone has any particular grievances." If an argument has been properly discussed, sourced, referenced and accepted by the advisors and all the other higher-ups in this private forum, and this can be conveyed to the rest of us, if the right work has been done there's no reason we wouldn't accept?
For one, transparency. Transparency is my homeboy. Very hard to upset people if you've put all your cards on the table and nobody can accuse anyone of anything nefarious, or say that they had no opportunity to voice a concern. It doesn't have to be a full democracy, it doesn't have to go to a full IOC-wide vote every time you want to make a tweak. But a grace period and a heads up -prior- to a change, rather than announcing it after the fact (if announcing it at all) could be good? I'm not an active member of any other detachments so I'm unsure how they do things as a point of reference.
I don't think you have much to worry about there. If you look at my answer more carefully, I state that there was a breakdown of communication at that time, but I felt that it has been resolved since then. As in, yes, something was broken communication wise. It's been fixed well before now though. That isn't to say that communication cannot always be improved! It can. A rolling "IMPENDING CHANGES RAWR" thread might be beneficial, although I kind of have that now with my ongoing worklist thread that I keep posted here. Worth consideration, at any rate.
2 hours ago, Rhaethe said:In retrospect, there was a breakdown in communication when all that happened. Between detachment and me, mainly, and I'll take responsibility for that. I personally believe that has been since rectified as in regards to LMO/Detachment process, however, and transparency of edits/corrections.
That particular forum has seen no action since April that was not already discussed / reflected in any of the detachment wide forums already. Outside of a couple grammar correction requests. And a BoStaff accessory addition request for the Kallus guy.
The work process flow that should be happening as in regards to CRL's I have already outlined elsewhere: But it generally goes like this:
Detachment dreams it up, beats it up, comes to Consensus > Detachment Leader and XO submit to LMO > LMO writes and/or edits, makes final arbitration, publishes.
Some Dets don't work exactly like that. An LMO can insert themselves anywhere in that process to speed things up, if necessary. I, personally, am completionist to a fault. My tendency is to continually push to get things done and handled so I can go on to the next thing. I also am far more hands on with the IOC than I am the other Dets I am assigned. But, admittedly, IOC has far more going on. Sometimes this can be considered "too fast" and things may seem to happen too quickly. Not everyone is able to get on the forums like myself or others can. This is something for me to work on.
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Time out. Happy happy peoples!
For what it is worth, there is a whole other board that cannot be seen by all members for a team of folks called the CRL Team that was appointed at beginning of term if I recall. Consists of all 20+ IOC Advisors, Detachment Staff, and some others. Forget who. That is where the matter was discussed. The proposal was made by a GML from Ireland (if I recall) and was commented one by some (not a lot), viewed by many / all in the group, but not actually disputed by anyone, other than specific spelling / wording to use.
That would likely be why the matter was considered sorted.
I did not participate in the discussion then, as during said discussion, there was no dissent that I could see, and my concern at the time was: "As long as the detachment has consensus." Which there appeared to be.
In retrospect, there was a breakdown in communication when all that happened. Between detachment and me, mainly, and I'll take responsibility for that. I personally believe that has been since rectified as in regards to LMO/Detachment process, however, and transparency of edits/corrections.
Going forward!
Looking at the Wiki, the current CRL for the staff rankbar no longer requires a single bar. If it still says it does on your screen, web caching still has not cascaded out for you. It soon will.
LMO's typically do not get involved with Excellence Levels programs. Except to sanity check.
My particular opinion as in regards to rankbars on Staff officer is so: I have absolutely no problem in saying that L1 Staff Officer should allow for whatever rankbar, due to whatever reference. You got a reference, have a rankbar!
The problem to be resolved is how to answer "What is more accurate for L2/L3?" which, as @Mac says above (and whom should NOT be made to feel bad for making the proposal) is really hard to answer ... because really, that really depends on the exact reference you are looking at.
- Obiwanbologna and Hask
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Good to hear folks outlooks so far
Here's a question/quandary, and please please note that by asking it I am not asserting an opinion. It is a gnarly bit that my brain is stumbling over, and is, I think a natural progression from the initial question.
That being: If you allow all reference to apply at L1, for a generic catch all CRL (such as staff officer is at present for "all black uniformed officers", other than Rebels or Legacy) why only use OT movie references for L2/L3?
Upper levels are a detachment program that recognizes greater accuracy. That means greater accuracy of the given costume to source, not to just the movies. How does one fairly do that if the CRL uses all references? Said plethora of references have distinct differences amongst each other ... not great enough to cause a separate CRL, from the beginning, but still there.
If all it takes a slight re-wording of the program to state that "higher levels are reserved for these specific movie references only" that is one "possible" solution. But not ideal. It doesn't seem terribly fair. How is above reconciled?
And yes, I may not be looking at it in the right way. So! Thoughts?
P.S.
No, we don't
40 minutes ago, Motoss said:I know the LMO team doesn't necesssarily want that either even if for a variety of reasons it was necessary for CTN.
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So. I am opening up this thread as a discussion on CRL methodology, current IOC CRL structure, where issues are, and how to move forward. I know this sounds vague, but it is a discussion that needs to occur before any actual review/auditing/ happens, and I intend on completing that before term end.
Some expectations and groundrules on this discussion:
* This is not the thread to discuss X item's specific verbiage.
* Let's not get caught in the weeds.
* Let's not dwell negatively on the good/bad/right/wrong/history of things. There are many people with varied opinions, closely held. And I truly believe that everyone has the best of intentions, even when said opinions expectedly clash.
* Regular courtesy / discussion rules applyThe good news: The IOC detachment has solid costumes that are accessible to many costumers. It is the second largest detachment in the Legion, by number of costumes approved.
The less than stellar news: The CRLs grew and changed organically as more source material and better source material became available. A noticeable amount of said source material never followed any specific structure or consistency ... and, over time, the CRL's themselves kinda sucked all of that in, but without actual structure now have conflicting bits.
For the most part, the Face Character CRL's are generally immune from this, because, well, they are very specific unique costumes. Where things start becoming a mishmash is in the generics.
When deciding upon a method of how to handle CRL's ... there are things to consider. A CRL should be reasonably accessible to the average costumer (not impossibly fiddly). A CRL should also be as accurate to source as it could be. A CRL should not need to undergo drastic changes. One shouldn't need to have 30 different CRL's to account for / describe something that even some diehard fans wouldn't know or care about.
There are folks that feel only "New Canon" references should be used. There are folks who feel that only movie is ok. There are folks that feel as long as there is a single reference that came from a licensed source, then that be acceptable. NONE of these folks are wrong. There isn't a wrong. Well, other than absolutely making something up with no logic applied whatsoever, like a green Star Trek Orion girl in a sandtrooper kit. But I digress.
As you can see ... compromises often have to be made. Which is ok! Developing a method / standard that can stand over time and staffing changes (IOC staffing and LMO staffing, for that matter) is key.
I am withholding my own opinions of where things "ought" to lie, for right now, either as an IOC member or an LMO. I really want to hear others' thoughts on this subject first.
tl;dr -- How nitty gritty do you feel that IOC CRL's should go in representing source material, and what do you consider acceptable source? And how would you change the current structure if you could, to fix things?
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Just now, buckrogersbarker said:
if it is by that definition Carri, shouldn't only the Fahrenheit 451 uniforms have rank badges? Those are the only black officer uniforms with ranks in ANH and the entire original trilogy for that matter.
unless.. you return this to what it was before for level 1... any and all ranks are permissible on all uniforms (provided that the correct guidance be provided: don't wear a hat as a moff, white uniforms should only be a grand admiral, none longer than 6 cubes, none taller than 2 cubes, etc).
If you want to do a specific character make it a level 2 or 3 requirement.... not level 1.I wasn't describing what I want it to be, necessarily
I was describing current state.
There is a deeper consistency problem that has developed over time that needs addressing big picture. Rankbars and the like will fall into line thereafter.
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Ultimately it comes down to the original generic line and staff officer CRL's being an amalgamation of BOTH of the following:
-- Generic CRL meant to cover all source (Movie, game, eu, etc) references for staff and line officers, so that 30 different CRL's based upon provenance aren't required --- AND ---
-- CRL only based on movie source (canon vs non canon and varying peoples changing definition thereof)
It isn't a smooth mixture, and one that happened (with the best of intentions) over time.
In this specific instance, if one takes into account all of the EU/Legends/Movie/Game/ etc material and say that those references are OK, then double-bar black officers are OK, too. If, however, you only look at the OT movies and require screen accuracy of those, then double-bar black officer would not be OK.
The solution is not to patchwork things. That is, sure, one could attempt to address the internal conflict within the CRL itself by a quick edit and hand-waving. It does not, however, help create a methodology behind CRL's for the IOC to be able to move forward on. That is something I will be opening up a discussion on soonish ... as I am mutli-tasking at work at present.
- GDMorti and Paggeldiwwer
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1 hour ago, Motoss said:
And some advice if you are a new member: If your census gets screwed up, there's an error on the webpage, you submit an incomplete census, any of that sort of stuff: your GMLs and CO have access to the membership database and can enter your information correctly (and they're the ONLY ones who can do so). So get it touch with them if it happens to you!
LMO's and LWM's (and some LFA's) also have access to help fix things. Try local, first, but contacting support@501st.com is always an option ... make sure to give your ID #, name, Garrison name, and what the problem is.
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Updated October 3, 2017
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Hey
It was announced in Announcements, I believe and announced the additions as well as textual clarifications.
I would hazard a guess that it would be easier for you to subscribe to Announcement forum maybe?
I am not aware that all the discussion concerning it happened in this thread, but will trust you on that if you say it did
As for a changelog for this specific CRL, I can tell you that it got a language overhaul that did not change most of the substance, per se`, but made the intent clearer (hopefully), particularly around the cape specs. Modesty panel acceptable but no longer required. What and exactly how many fasteners people use to fasten the cape to the shoulders is no longer specified. The belt may hang, but isn't required to hang. Exactly how many panels or sections the cape has is no longer specified/required. Those are the big things I remember off the top of my head, outside of the accessory and flashback additions.
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6 minutes ago, GDMorti said:
Gotcha! Thanks for the update.
It's tricky keeping up with all of the threads this CRL is spread out over. Hoping for results back from the LMO's soon! And hope you're feeling better soon too, doesn't sound fun at all. :c Thanks for all your work on this so far!
You are welcome. As an LMO, it's my job
I think we're pending on another photo, since one of the ones that got picked wasn't working out (technical glitching) but it is in progress.
You will not see the Battle Gear in the final published CRL, however ... until someone actually makes some. But it is an approved to be added as an accessory by the IOC when someone does.
And yes, am quite better than what I was ... I can breathe now
~C
Uniforms, Rankbars, CRL Methodology Oh My!
in CRL Updates
Posted
You are right. The shade / tone of olive used for Rebels' line is noticeably different. That doesn't mean to say that one couldn't use the same uniform for current Imperial Line Officer and Rebels Officer. You could, provided there aren't super noticeable construction specific differences in the two references. You just can't do a Cosplaysky one
All of the other bits that make a Rebels uniform distinctly Rebels can be switched out for "Real World" bits when you want to do your Real World costume, as long as one is clever with construction ... that is, making the collar insignia a pin that lays super flat for example. Kind of like taking your Imperial Crewman, putting on gauntlet gloves, and becoming a TIE Reserve.