PArmstr
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Posts posted by PArmstr
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On 1.5.2018 at 8:37 AM, Hask said:
Yes for now this will stay as is
I do not think this is a good idea. The tunics of the ISB ANH and ISB R1 are two completely different tunics. They should have never been put in the same CRL in the first place. I thought CRLs should be simple so that newbies and non-native English speakers can understand them. We should use the opportunity that the new CRL format give use to split up the ISB CRL in an ISB ANH CRL and an ISB R1 CRL.
- Steven, Sokar117 and Theblueguy808
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On 28.4.2018 at 2:51 AM, f00f said:
I don't want to get off topic, but since there were references to ESB line officer gloves, which I've been researching for my costume build, I thought I'd share these references I found, which show that Needa and Ozzel do have 3 stitches, and they aren't the super short gloves some of the other officers seem to be wearing.
It took some very careful frame by frame viewing to catch these, since lighting and motion blur often completely hide the lines.
For comparison, here's one of Piett. I know it's blurry, but I think it's still fairly clear that his gloves are shorter.
You did a very good job. I only own the DVDs so I have to work with the screen caps from https://starwarsscreencaps.com/ because they have a better quality than anything that I could take but still I was not able to find what you did.
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The final was fantastic.
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33 minutes ago, Steven said:
As I said in Patricias other thread, I would make this a seperate CRL and not add it to this one.
The guy Mac and I are talking about is just an officer that wears a helmet. He would not fit into the other thread because the R1 IN in dress uniform has a completely different tunic and boots. They look more like the ones in ANH.
R1 staff officer with helmet
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1 hour ago, Steven said:
I edited the CRL draft, making the Code Cylinders non-optional again. I added the pic of the maybe plugged in Code Cylinders at the Data Vault console. And I added some new wording regarding the L2 criteria for the Code Cylinders, which can be seen in green writing.
But just after writing this post I found a detail on this pic:
This is another Officer without Code Cylinders, only a 2 blue tile rank is seen. So according to our criterias this would make Code Cylinders optional again, I'm confused what to do.
Ideas and thoughts appreciated as always!
I am not sure what we should do. There does not seem to be any consistency when it comes to code cylinders and belt boxes. We do not know if that was done on purpose or if it is a wardrobe malfunction.
I also do not know what we should with the officer with the IN helmet. Where should we put him? Should we add the helmet as an optional item in this CRL or should we make a separate TESB, ROTJ, R1 CRL where rank bars and code cylinders are optional if worn in this configuration. There are just questions over questions.
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11 hours ago, Steven said:
They made a complete nonsense on this, because this is definitely NOT the same actor and also not the same Uniform configuration. He wears 3 blue tiles in the VD but 4 blue tiles in the movie.
You may fire when ready ^^
I did not even see the different rank bar because I was wondering if Lt. Putna was portrait by too different guys or if it was just too early in morning for me.
5 hours ago, xAlpha said:Maybe he's taken them out and plugged them into that console as his identification. Rebels, as mentioned, made that canon, at least.
Not that it affects the CRL really.
Perhaps that is the case. After all Jyn, Cassian and and K-2SO did disturb him by whatever important thing he was doing.
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Oh great another inconsistency. Thank you very much Lucas Film.
If you look at the screen caps from Rogue One you can see that Lieutenant Milton Putna wears two belt boxes but does not have a code cylinder in his left pocket. (Edit:)
We cannot see if he wears one in his right pocket or not.You cannot see the empty right pocket on my reference but Stefan has posted one on the first page of this thread where you see it.So perhaps he has a no code cylinders at all.I got to correct myself. He has no code cylinders at all.(End of Edit.)On page 147 of the Star Wars Rogue One - The Ultimate Visual Guide he wears one code cylinder in each pocket but no belt boxes.
(Edit:) So it is the exact opposite of the film. (End of Edit.)
(Edit:) Here is reference I was talking about. (End of Edit)
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4 minutes ago, xAlpha said:
Are we saying the ROTJ bridge crew gloves don't flare out? If they're gauntlet-style, isn't that implied?
Did I miss something? Is there some text saying that they do not flare out? The gauntlets that are used in ROTJ flare out a lot. More then any other gauntlet I have seen in my life.
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There is a mistake in the warrant officer part. I tried to get that corrected on August the 16th 2016 but nothing was done at the time. The warrant officer in ANH did wear gauntlet style gloves. So the part that states
- ANH warrant officers shall not wear gauntlet style gloves.
has been incorrect for a while. It should instead only say
- ROTJ warrant officers shall not wear gauntlet style gloves.
Everything else looks fine to me. There is no warrant officer in ESB and I think that the warrant officer ROTJ should get its own CRL so that part can be taken out because it is too much.
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I just took a look at the screen caps of R1. We cannot see the boots very well but it is enough to conform the the type of boots the guy wears. The definitively look like FO boots to me but I am not an expert for the FO uniforms.
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1 minute ago, Tutanchseth said:
Why does he wear First Order boots??? There's clealy a seam and a uniformly sole. That's... interesting
My guess is that the actor did not fit in any other boot they had so they just took the First Order boots. If I am not mistaken you do not see the boots during the film because he was standing behind a console. I will check my screen caps to be sure.
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11 minutes ago, Steven said:
As a historian I love every piece of written evidence, I just leave this here so that everyone can see it:
Good spot Patricia!
Thanks, Steven. I do the best I can to serve the Galatic Empire.
It can and should be done. I remember a staff officer asking during the election Q and A if the name could be changed. There was no basis for the name staff or line when they were created. It was arbitrarily assigned because no one knew what to call them.
Now we do.
black uniforms are security services officers
green uniforms I would call Starfleet officers.
but that is just me.
What do you think?
What about the name I found for the green officers in Rogue One? On page 117 of the Star Wars Rogue One - The Ultimate visual Guide Captain Shaef Corrsin, which is wearing what we call a line officer uniform, is called a "Imperial Navy officer". I would really prefer to call them "Imperial Navy officer" instead of line officer and it does also sound a lot better as the name Starfleet officer that @buckrogersbarker suggested, which sound to much like Star Trek to me.
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The black officers in Rogue one are definitively security officers. I am quoting the Lieutenant Milton Putna entry from page 147 of the Star Wars Rogue One - The Ultimate visual Guide "A librarian-turned-security officer, Putna is well versed with the layout of the datatape library tree. Acess into the main vault door is keyed to his palm print."
On page 117 Captain Shaef Corrsin, which is wearing what we call a line officer uniform, is called a "Imperial Navy officer".
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Since it can be used for all staff officer that came after ANH perhaps we should call it "staff officer post ANH 1977".
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11 minutes ago, Paggeldiwwer said:
I have not seen yet they have indeed split it up from one to three separate CRL's. Good to know
Their color-game was a bit confusing too.
I know that would have preferred a separate CRL for each warrant officer when I was a noob on this forum in November 2014. I still find many CRL confusing.
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2 minutes ago, xAlpha said:
I have a 1770s workman's coat that is specifically unlined, but it's linen and supposed to be lightweight. Every uniform I have from the era is lined, even the heavy wool ones.
No lining makes a lot of seens when it is supposed to be lightweight. The Russian Imperial Army officer summer tunic, on which the ISB ANH tunic is based were, also ment to be lightweight. If I remember the information correctly it was stated that the first two were made out of light wool material. The 1907 version is made out cotton propably a duck canvas weave and has no lining so it is not as warm as the winter tunics.
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36 minutes ago, xAlpha said:
Are there any uniforms that aren't lined?
I realize it's an assumption either way, but it seems like a safe one to make.
We do not know if all tunics where lined or not but it is very likely that they were. Most but not all tunics from the 19th century till the early 20th century where lined. For instance, the 1907 version of the Russian Imperial Army officer summer tunic, which fits the shape of the ISB ANH tunic the best, is not lined but it is also made out of cotton canvas instead of wool. I will add information about the possible reason in my research thread. I also know that some tunics that the US forces used during the american civil war were not lined. I read that somewhere during my research for a steampunk uniform.
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I did some color changes with the reference photos. That Warrant officer is also wearing the short gloves. The part that I thought was the flare of the possible gauntlet is his hand and the part that I thought was his hand is a darker part of the wall. The proportions of that guys arms still look kind of strange to me but I am quite sure that he is not wearing gauntlets. So we now know that all the warrant officers in ROTJ wore the short gloves.
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57 minutes ago, Mac said:
As anybody else see a Rotj warrant officer wearing gauntlets I only see shorter gloves
As far as I can tell most of them perhaps all of them were regular gloves and not gauntlets. There is only one guy where I am not sure what he is wearing because the reference looks like something in between. The warrant officer seems to be wearing longer gloves (red arrow) that flare out a little bit. But they do not look like the gauntlets the navy trooper is wearing (green arrow) because those flare out a lot more. He is definitively not wearing the short gloves the line officer is wearing (blue arrow).
22 hours ago, xAlpha said:No, I meant the ANH non-officer/WO ones:
Those gloves look like old fashioned motorcycle gloves. I know I have seen similar ones in old movies. I have found some similar ones on eBay. Unfortunately, I have not found the correct ones yet. Perhaps they are not available anymore.
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Here are some female patterns that might be a good starting point for female officer tunics. Some are better starting points then others because they need less altering. It all depends on the tunic you want to create, your clothing size, your body shape and your skill set. This list is of course not all inclusive. There are many more possible patterns.
These patterns will help me to demonstrate the princess seams and darts on the front of the tunic I am talking about. They show how common these seams and darts are in female patterns. Many of these are also used in male patterns as well.
The green lines are round princess seams. The red lines are straight princess seams. The blue lined are darts under the bust and the purple line are darts on the side of the bust.
- Paggeldiwwer, rattleandburn and xAlpha
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16 hours ago, nocternus said:
Veers did indeed have the 3 stitch lines on his gloves, there was a discussion about it here a couple of years back and the Line officer CRL was changed to reflect that
I am not sure if that was not a good ideal. As far as I can see Admiral Ozzel and Captain Needa have the longer gloves with no stitching are real line officers. We cannot tell if General Veers wear the or not when he is on board the star destroyer. We can only clearly see that he is wearing shorter gloves shorter when he is on the AT-AT during the battle of hoth. That costume has its own CRL.
12 hours ago, IC90109 said:While there has been some very interesting points brought up in this conversation, and I appreciate the picture references provided by the Captain (thank you, Patricia!), the question still stands in my mind. I would point out though that Line Officers and Imperial Navy Troopers are not what I'm questioning. It's the glove inconsistencies specifically between Staff Officers, Warrant Officers, and Bridge Crew (and TIE Reserve Pilot, which I'll get to below). Related to that, we see what appears to be a Warrant Officer with buckles on his gloves in some of the film references provided above. Yet according to the CRL, buckles aren't allowed for Warrant Officers. On the pictures of the Bridge Crew in formation, it's impossible to enlarge the photo with enough clarity to see if their gloves have stitching on the back as we've seen for Warrant and Staff Officers. Is there a more definitive picture reference for Bridge Crew?
What's also compelling evidence is the TIE Reserve Pilot, which is identical to the Bridge Crew costume except for the addition of the side arm (DH-17, in most movie references). Again, the CRL permits the stitching on the back of the gloves for this costume, but it's prohibited for Bridge Crew.
Black Gauntlet Gloves (TIE Reserve Pilot)
For 501st approval:- Black, leather or leather-like, enclosed fingered, non-textured, (normal leather grain/texture/lines are acceptable) fitted gauntlet style.
- No buckles, straps, or decorative stitching.
- Three straight lines, on the back of the hand (that match some references), are optional.
I realize the purpose of the CRL is to keep us as accurate as possible with movie canon, and the movies had quite a few (subtle) inconsistencies where Imperial uniforms were concerned. Respectfully, and for the reasons stated above, the gloves for all three (four, if you include TIE Reserve Pilot) of these related costumes needs a formal review for all those related CRLs.
You are right and I am glad that you brought the issue back on the table. The whole glove problem should of course be addressed. I hope that it will be cleared up in new CRLs and future CRL updates. Creating new CRLs and updating old CRLs needs members that care about the costumes and want the highest quality of costumes but also clear and easy to work with CRLs because it is difficult for detachments personnel to keep everything up to date. I am not a staff member myself but try to help with my knowledge about certain uniforms where I can.
As for scanner crews and bridge crews they only wear gauntlets in ROTJ during the line ups for Vader and the Imperator. Those are the same ones for all flight suit wearers with exception of the mechanics in the blue flight suits, which do not wear gloves. The gauntlets are the same ones the TIE-Fighter and X-Wing in ANH wear. Those gauntlets have the stitching and it should be consistent in all CRLs that use the same components. I completely agree with you about that.
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28 minutes ago, Steven said:
I asked about a seperate CRL when I did a R1 ISB as one of the first members of the IOC but Kris told me it would only be added to the current ISB CRL as an alternative version.
So I highly appreciate your efford on the ANH ISB and I myself wrote a R1 ISB CRL before but it was not used. At least the tunic in the CRL for the R1 version is mine
don't worry about collecting information about the R1 version, I feel secure enough to say that I have what it needs for it.
Now that you mention it, I kind of remember reading about it. I would have preferred a separate CRL at the time but did not say anything because I was only a 501st member and not an IOC member yet and thought that my opinion would not count anyway. Perhaps now we can use your R1 ISB CRL proposal and make two separate ISB CRLs.
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On 2/25/2018 at 6:00 PM, Steven said:
Am I right that this is supposed to be an update for the current ANH ISB Officer?
Yes and no. The former ANH ISB CRL does no longer exist due to the fact that it now is a general ISB CRL because the Rogue One ISB information was added. Since the tunics are very different there should be a CRL for each version of the ISB officer to clear up the CRLs. There are also some minor differences between the two ISB versions, such as belt box size, extra groves on belts and other little details.
I hope that will help future ISBs. My proposal is for the ISB ANH CRL. As far as I know nobody has started on an ISB RO CRL. I would prefer that someone else dreates that one due to the fact that I am not very familiar with the Rogue One uniforms and do not have the time to do the extra research on them.
On 2/25/2018 at 5:02 PM, Paggeldiwwer said:As always, Patricia, you have done an awesome Research. Congratulations
One thing is not clear to me yet:At which positions can the princess-seams be placed in the front? Left and right of the breast I guess, right?
The reference concerning a missing lining is great. I was not aware of this
Thank you, Marc. I have found some more interesting information about these unique uniforms during the weekend, which I will add to my research thread. For instance I now know why the 1907 version is not white.
I will add some grafics of which types of darts and princess seams that I have in mind. I have three burda patterns that show what I mean.
CRL suggestion Seperate "Rogue One ISB-Officer"
in New CRLs
Posted
The gloves are already mentioned as an optional item in the proposed ISB R1 CRL.