PArmstr
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Posts posted by PArmstr
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39 minutes ago, bjsavage7 said:
I came up with "hall walkers". lol. The working title I had in mind for a while was Death Star Officer.
Maybe we could just call them Senior NCOs since most of them looked a bit on the older side.
btw, I love this diagram.
I do have one small concern. I don't know if i'm 100% convinced this uniform had princess seams. Most of the movie stills make the back appear pretty blank. What looks like a seam could possibly be a wrinkle. I could be wrong though.
I'm hoping for at least, a strong consensus on that before I take my material to the seamstress next week.
I'll have to share a pic of the headphones I found that somewhat match the clunky air crew phones, the one guy wears under his helmet.
Yes, you are right. The things I think I see on the back could be a wrinkle instead of a princess seam. We cannot be 100 % sure. I have been looking for the real world uniform that was used for the hall walker for about 1.5 years but I have not found it yet. I have looked at British, German and Russian uniforms from around 1850 till 1945. I have also looked at traditional German jackets. Some come close but non where an exact match. It is so frustrating.
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No I did not find a new tunic. They just used the wrong photo. The text on starwars.com describes our IN but the photo shows a hall walker. This specific hall walker is also in the elevator scene. In ANH the hall walkers man the controls of the monitor room on the death star. In Rogue One the IN dress uniforms man that station.
Edit: The color of the hall walkers in the monitor room looks different in every screen cap.
Death star controls in monitor room ANH
Death star controls in monitor room RO
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On 1/29/2018 at 10:31 AM, PArmstr said:
I always thought that they were technicians or engineers perhaps even scientist due to the fact that some of them look very old. I will check my kindle version of ANH to see if something is mentioned in the scene.
A New Hope: Star Wars: Episode IV (Lucas, Geaorge) Position 2478-2480 [page 138 of 216] "The farther they traveled, the heavier the traffic became. Other soldiers, bureaucrats, technicians and mechanicals bustled around them. Intent on their own assignments, they ignored the trio completely, only a few of the humans sparing the wookie a curious glance."
I think the "mechanicals" are the droids. The "soldiers" are most likely the navy troopers. The "bureaucrats" are probably the ISBs. So then the "technicians" would be the hall walkers. That would make the most sense due to the fact that one of the old hall walkers is standing behind Tarkin wearing a IN helmet and head phones.
For some reason that I still do not understand the databank of starwars.com calls exactly that guy a death star trooper.
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I always thought that they were technicians or engineers perhaps even scientist due to the fact that some of them look very old. I will check my kindle version of ANH to see if something is mentioned in the scene.
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5 hours ago, xAlpha said:
EDIT: Later on, there's a full-length image of an officer in the Holiday Special wearing this with straight-legged pants instead of jodhpurs.
I'm not sure it's worth using this god-awful thing as evidence, but it does have code cylinder pockets.
This is not a hall walker uniform. The closure goes left over right instead of right over left. It has code cylinder pockets. The hall walker do not have code cylinder pockets. The collar has the same color as the tunic and closes completely. The hall walker collar is a different color as the tunic and it does not close completely. There is a gap of a 1/2 - 1 inch (12.7 mm - 25.4 mm). The tunic in the holiday Special also does not have cuffs. The hall walkers have cuffs in the same color of the collar.
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Here is a possible IN dress uniform ANH / warrant officer ANH CRL. The might still be some errors I did some cut and paste out of the existing IN, warrant officer and ISB CRL but also changed and added information. So here goes nothing. This is a workin process so there will be some changes.
Beginning of edit March 4th 2018:
(copied the newest CRL version, which is from February 21st 2018, into this post so that everybody can find it at first glance)
Imperial Navy Helmet
For 501st approval:
- For more detailed images, see the Imperial Navy Helmet Detail page.
- 12" (304.8mm) diameter black plastic dome.
- Front and back covers with 1.5" (38.1mm) holes over-laid onto dome.
- Back "wing" extending about 4" (101.6mm) below the rim of the dome at the sides and about 7" (177.8mm) at the back, encompassing about half the circumference of the helmet.
- Ear blocks with a bend to match the flare of the "wing" over each ear at the front ends of the "wing" with geometric circle patterns in the top half and a spaced out area of "dimples" in the lower half.
For level two certification (if applicable):
- Helmet must very closely match the details seen on screen
For level three certification (if applicable):
- Must exactly match a specific helmet worn on-screen.
Tunic
For 501st approval:
- Fabric should be black or a very dark blue
- Tunic is double-breasted with a left over right closure on the tapered yoke.
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Yoke comes straight across from the collar center
not coming up to the shoulder seam. - The standing collar has square corners and should cover ½ to 2/3 of the neck. A modesy panel can be present.
- Sleeves are long, and without decoration, cuffs or buttons
- Tunic shall not have the standard code cylinder pockets.
- Darts and princess seams on the front are permitted for a better fit of the tunic
- A seam running the entire circumference of the tunic, dividing the top from the skirt is permitted
For level two certification (if applicable):
- There is a seam down the center of the yoke
- There is top stitching down the yoke about 50mm from the edge
- There is a slit on both side seams that goes up about 1/3 of the total length of the tunic
- Sleeves have two seams, one along the bottom and one along the back.
- The point of the yoke comes across and slightly up.
For level three certification (if applicable):
- The fabric should be wool
- There are princess seams on the back of the tunic
- There is a seam down the center of the back
- There shall be no seam running the entire circumference of the tunic
- There is top stitching on the top of the yoke running from the middle seam around the yoke down the hem. The top stitching is about 10mm from the edge.
- There is top stitching around the wrist area of the sleeve. The top stitching is about 10mm from the edge.
- There is top stitching around the bottom hem of the front and back of the tunic. The top stitching in about 10mm from the edge.
- There is top stitching around the edge of the collar. The top stitching is about 10mm from the edge
- There is lining inside the tunic
- Snaps or buttons hidden behind a panel are used for closure
- There shall not be extra darts or princess seams on the front
Black Gauntlet Gloves
For 501st approval:
- Black, leather or leather-like, enclosed fingered, non-textured, fitted gauntlet style.
For level two certification (if applicable):
- Gauntlets are made of leather.
For level three certification (if applicable):
- Gauntlets have a strap with a buckle around the wrist.
- Gaunlet have red lining
Belt
For 501st approval:
- The belt is constructed from a non-textured leather or a leather-like material.
- Approximately 2" (50.8 mm) in width, up to 3" (76.2 mm) is acceptable.
- There are no loops on the belt.
- A single large snap or rivet is visible approximately 1" (25.4 mm) from the buckle. The belt may be worn with the snap to the right or left of the wearer.
- The buckle is constructed from a horizontally brushed metal, or metal looking material.
- The buckle size is approximately 2 5/8" (66.7 mm) high and 4 1/8" (104.5 mm) wide with 0.5" (12.7 mm) radius rounded corners.
- Buckle is adorned with an Imperial Code Disk at the center. Please refer to the Imperial Buckle reference page for information on accurate and inaccurate style buckles.
For level two certification (if applicable):
- Belt is made of leather.
For level three certification (if applicable):
- Snap is worn to the left of the wearer.
- Buckle has a slight horizontal
Trousers
For 501st approval:
- Trousers should be made of the same fabric as the tunic
- Trousers should have same color as tunic
- Pockets are acceptable, although not visible with the tunic on.
- Pants are neatly pressed with no center crease and are tucked into boots.
Boots
For 501st approval:
- Calf high black leather or leather like material.
- Free of laces, decorative stitching, buckles on the instep or any other embellishments.
- Boots may have a single adjustment strap at the top outside of the boot, with the buckle no wider than 1". This need not be functional.
- Zippers on the inside of the boot are acceptable, so long as they are concealed. If the zipper is not covered by vinyl/ leather, it is painted black.
- German "jack boot" style boots are most canon.
For level two certification (if applicable):
- Boots are made of leather.
For level three certification (if applicable):
- Original German jack boots (or ?Knobelbechers?) or an authentic replication thereof.
- Boots have the top adjustment strap.
Optional Accessories
Items below are optional costume accessories. These items are not required for approval, but if present
appear as described below.
Belt Boxes
For 501st approval:
- Two vertical belt boxes, one on either side of the belt buckle
- Dimensions are approximately 2 1/2" (63.5 mm) by 3 1/2" (88.9 mm) by 1" (25.4 mm) thick.
For level two certification (if applicable):
- Belt boxes should include a lid on back of the box.
- Project boxes are not allowed for level 2 and 3 clearance.
For level three certification (if applicable):
- Belt boxes are constructed of metal.
Imperial Hat, black
For 501st approval:
- Fabric is a medium weight suiting material matching the pants and tunic if applicable. Gabardine style weave is most accurate.
- Base of the hat is conical, with a crown about 4" (101.6 mm) tall.
- Front and rear "flaps" overlap on the sides and are about 4" (101.6 mm) high.
- Front bill extends 3" down, decorated with 5, 6 or 7 concentric stitches.
- Imperial Code Disk is positioned in the center of the front vertical flap.
For level two certification (if applicable):
- Code Disk has a notch detail on the outermost disk.
For level three certification (if applicable):
- Code disk exactly matches screen-used prop.
Holster
For 501st approval:
- Made of black leather or leather-like material.
For level two certification (if applicable):
- Holster should be made of leather
For level three certification (if applicable):
- DH-17 holster should be worn on the right side
- E-11 holster should be worn on the left side
DH-17 Blaster
For 501st approval:
- Scratch built, high-end prop replica or a modified commercial toy Rebel Trooper blaster.
BlasTech E-11
For 501st approval:
- Scratch-built, high-end prop replica or a modified commercial toy Stormtrooper blaster.
End of edit March 4th 2018:
This CRL is based on my research, the research of TK1066, Paggeldiwwer and many others.
- xAlpha and Paggeldiwwer
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Yes, the direction of the closure is strange. Right over left is usually considered to be the female version. For men it should be left over right.
Yes, you are right the possibilty of princess seams is very high. Could you post the photo of the back where you think you might have seen them? I cannot see them on my reference photos. Which princess seam version could they have? The more rounded version of the imperial tunics and ISB tuics or the more straight version of the NY police tunics?
I really do not know if the tunics have the waist seam. The ISB tunics have them but the NY police tunics do not. The hall walkers might have it or they might not. I am leaning to no. The hall walker tunics do not look as fitted too me as for instance the line officer tunics. I think the tunics are only pulled in by the belts. There are to many folds and bunching around the waist for them to be fitted.
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Thank you for the screen caps, Marc. Your photos show the different color of the cuffs and collar better than mine. In some of the photos it looks like the trousers have a tuxedo stripe going down the leg. I was not able to see that before. Unfortunately, I still have not figured out witch real world uniform it is. Perhaps the hall walkers have princess seams on their back, similar to the IN, warrant officer and ISB tunics, and we just cannot see them due to the back quality of the film. So many question and no answers.
Edit: I just did another some google with the keywords green jacket or tunic, brown collar, braun cuffs. The only thing that looked similar to the hall walker are some traditional jackets called "Janker". Some of those have a different color collar but non of them had cuffs in the same color. They also have pockets, which the hall walker do not seem to have.
Here are some examples:
https://www.frankonia.de/herren/trachten/janker-trachtenjacken/Artikel.html
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I only took my glasses of for the approval pictures. I have to wear mine for events because my vision is pretty bad. I tried out contact lenses a couple of times. Unfortunately, they irritate my eyes so badly that I can use them.
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1 hour ago, FEZ said:
We didn’t lose the belt boxes. We just threw them at the ewoks
I like your in universe explanation for the missing belt boxes better than my film set explanation.
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On 14.1.2018 at 2:57 PM, bobafett4ever said:
So now that the 451 CRL is live, what's shaking on the Warrant Officer CRL?
Just checking in as I'm thinking of doing a RotJ (Warrant Officer?) since my black Cosplaysky uniform isn't 451-style and I just don't feel right wearing it as such with the ANH accessories.
Why are you asking about the new warrant officer CRL, if you want to create a ROTJ style warrant officer? The current CRL covers that costume. If you purchase a second set of belt boxes you are ready for the application and approval because you already have all the other components. Your costume will be grandfathered if it is cleared under the current CRL and the new CRL is published.
There were many warrant officers in ROTJ. They all wore black equestrian boots, a black imperial tunic, black jodhpur trousers and four belt boxes. One wore a head set and no cloves. Some wore gauntlet gloves others wore gloves similar to the ones that the line officers wore. Some wore all their belt boxes in the front. Some wore on set in the front and one box on each side. Some also look like they might have lost a belt box while running away from ewoks.
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8 minutes ago, Paggeldiwwer said:
Yeah, the references are never showing her from behind. But do we have reference how the back looks when she wears an "imperial-pattern" uniform? If not, than even the old CRL would have a small lack of proof here.
But an opening in the back... hmmm. As I mentioned: this should be a militairy uniform, not a straightjacket
I am pretty sure the tunic would not have been closed on back. Closing your garments on the back is not very common.
Now back to the problem at hand. Are we really sure that there are no references of the back of this type of tunic? Are we sure there are really references of the back of the other type tunic? How did we come up with the back of the first tunic? Are there any comic readers out there that could shed some light on this topic? Personally I do not read star wars comics so I cannot provide any help.
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I agree that the resolution of characters, which can be seen while playing the game, are probably lower that characters seen during the cut scenes. Due to that, fewer details can be seen. I have also heard that details of characters seem to change from scene to scene in the game. I do not know if that is true or not, because I have not played the game myself.
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I think we should try to keep CRLs as simple as possible. We are an international costume club and not everyone understands English on the same level. I think if there is enough interest in the different versions of this costume there should be separate CRLs for the TFA, BF2 and TLJ versions.
- Hask, Angelus and buckrogersbarker
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8 hours ago, Paggeldiwwer said:
The CRL's for imperial Officers always refer to princess-seams on the back of the tunic - not the front.
Only the Officers of the First Order have front princess-seams, not the officers of the Galactic Empire.
I do not completely agree with your statement Marc. We know that most of the Galactic Empire tunics do not have princess seams on the front. We do not know if this is the case for all tunics. We do not know if female uniforms in the OT would have had them because we do not see any female officers in the movies. We now know that the IN dress uniforms ANH, warrant officers ANH and ISB ANH had a lot of seams and top stitching but they are not visible in ANH due to the bad quality of the film. So perhaps one of tunics had princess seams on the front. We just do not know that. We can only make an educated guess due to the information of the book Star Wars Costumes: The Original Trilogy and the photos of real NY police tunics and Russian imperial army summer officer tunics that I have found on the internet.
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@Daetrin Thank you for your clarification. It really was not clear to me that you agreed with me.
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I agree with BarisAlrisul. The extra seams that are needed to fit a blouse, jacket, coat or tunic on a female body is the reason why I haven’t finished this project. I do not have the knowledge to draft my own pattern. I have to use an existing pattern as a starting point. All the patterns that I was able to find have extra seams. Sometimes they are princess seams in the front or darts on the side of the breast and/or under the breast or straight seams that start at the shoulder seam and go all the way down to the hem. It did not matter which source I wanted to use, if it is tailored to fit it has them. Only the baggy stuff did not have the extra seams. I went to all the pattern makers, such as Burda, McCall’s, Butterick, Vogue, Kwik Sew and Reconstructing History.
This is the reason why I argued this case on the HQ forum and here in the IOC forum.
https://www.501st.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=95184
http://www.imperialofficer.com/forum/index.php?/topic/8115-breasts-in-costumes/
I have a suggestion to solve part of this problem. We could allow the extra seams that women need in the new CRLs for the IN dress uniform ANH, warrant officer ANH and ISB ANH. I was able to prove that the NY police tunic and the Russian officer summer tunic used for these uniforms have a ton of top stitching and extra seams. They cannot be seen in the movie due to the bad quality of 1977’s film. You even cannot see them in the blue ray pictures that I use as my source. If top stitching was there but cannot been there is no justification to not permit extra seams.
So here is my sugestion. Allow extra seams and darts for female fitting on the mentioned tunics on level 1. Add all the top stitching and seams that these uniforms had in reality as a must do for level 3. Everything else in between is for level 2.
The ANH uniforms are the only ones where we need to allow this. The uniforms of ESB, ROTJ, R1, Rebels and the olive uniforms from ANH have the yoke where women can hide the extra seams underneath.
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The New York City Police Museum might have a tunic in their exhibit. Perhaps someone who lives in the area could go there and take a look. More pictures and information about it would probably help us.
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@BarisAlrisul Well, it does encourage me a little bit but I'm not sure if I'm up to the challenge right now. It took me over 3 months to finish the warrant officer for the Rogue One showing. It was a lot of work and stress to get it done in time. I cannot invest that much of my time right now and I also have two other projects that I want to finish by the last weekend in September. I have been working on my warrant officer for over 3 years and on my ISB ANH for over 2 years. So a couple of more will not kill me. I also want to wait and see what will happen with the new CRLs of those costumes. I would hate it if I was in the middle of making a new officer with the old CRL and then the new one came out and could not get it approved anymore.
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I did something similar for the first wearable version of my warrant officer. I used the Burda 7565 for the tunic. I didn’t like the collar so I used the collar from the Burda 104-122012 pattern. I shorted the skirt and added the yoke. I also had to make the upper portion of the arm wider because I have very fat upper arms compared to my lower arms due to Lipedema. That was pretty much it.
I never went for approval because similar to you I have princess seams on the front. I also have an extra seam down my back. I mostly made it to practice for my real tunic, if I ever find the time to finish it, and to have a costume to wear for the local premiere of Rogue One in December 2016. This is as close to my warrant officer I have gotten. I think I need a lot more experience in altering patterns and sewing before I can make an approvable officer tunic.
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Wow, I watch that scene about one hundred times but I was always paying so much attention to the uniform that I never realized that it they switched actors on that right guard.
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I can post my Russian Imperial Army officers' summer tunic and NY police tunic’s photos in another post. I can also help with analyzing the top stitching. I will need with the analyzing just in case I miss something. I am not sure where in the CRL section I should post them. Do you want a new discussion about the ISB ANH and Navy Trooper/Warrant Officer ANH, or do want me to continue an old one by posting the photos in one of the following links?
http://www.imperialofficer.com/forum/index.php?/topic/9297-warrant-officer-update-help-requested/
http://www.imperialofficer.com/forum/index.php?/topic/7823-anh-warrant-officer-executor-crl/
http://www.imperialofficer.com/forum/index.php?/topic/7648-proposed-update-imperial-navy-trooper/
I think we need create separate CRLs for the ISB ANH and ISB R1. The two uniforms are too different to be kept in the same CRL. If we want to start addressing the top stitching and non-stop stitching of both uniforms the CRLs will get more confusing otherwise. I also think we should create one CRL that includes the Navy Trooper ANH and the Warrant Officer ANH in the hall with the two INs because they are wearing the same things. The only difference between them is that one has a hat and no blaster and the others have a helmet and a DH-17 with holster. Another thing we need to do is to decide if the warrant officer in the detention cell that is wearing riding boots and the Fahrenheit 451 tunic without a rank bar and code cylinders is a wardrobe malfunction or if it should be an option in the Fahrenheit 451 CRL.
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I forgot to mention that the warrant officer in ANH that talks to the two navy troopers in the hallway also wears the NY police tunic. Due to that fact he also has top stitching.
Imperial "Hall Walker" Officers ANH CRL
in New CRLs
Posted
Perhaps we are wrong about the color of the collar and cuffs. Maybe they are not brown. It could be that for some reason they just look that way in some screen caps. I found an olive Russian uniform that has large cuffs and no pockets. If you turn the closure from left over right to right over left and imagine it without shoulder flaps and collar insignia it looks very similar.
Source: http://www.zemlyanka-v.com/shop/ussr/uniforma/paradnyjj-mundir-serzhanta-vvs-sa-obr-1943-goda/