Hoda

I get that, but I’m getting so very sick and tired of “high levels of legion = behind closed doors” - this should be brought to the public eye as to how biased, unfair and dangerously arrogant the lmo’s have been abusing their position.

We are making a small update to the CRL today.  I'm tagging it onto this thread since it's still quite new, and the update is small.  This update has already been approved by the LMO team, as it is a modification for basic level approval (even though it's optional), and should be added shortly.
 
In The Mandalorian we have seen officers for the first time (Katie O'Brian's character) wearing boots with a v-shaped notch at the back of the boot's top.  These aren't actual expansion joints, per se, but they're different enough from prior boots that we feel the addition of the option is warranted, since it's the first time we've seen something other than a fairly flat top in boots.
 

 

 
The addition to the existing language is in red, below:
 
 
Enjoy your newest option!

Thanks for the reminder, Jeff, I had forgotten the details about what was discussed last round, but now I remember that being the case.
 
FO boots certainly exist, so they could be *technically* be included, but the hybrid option, no, not so much.
 
It's a good reminder, however, about how CRLs work: We can't just grab screen shots and say "Ok, there it is, add it".  Someone has to actually submit a costume with that feature, and supply photos for the CRL, before anything like that can be included.
 
All that said, here's my thoughts on these boots:
 
There are multiple principles at play. There’s principle of “this is how we intend for this character to look”. Add to that the principle of consistency across the 501st. WE ARE NOT THE RPF. We do not have to replicate mistakes just because they were on screen. We don’t make our L3 Stormtroopers put white gaffers tape on their armor, and we don’t allow Mr NoStripes, despite him clearly being on screen. And we don’t allow Gunners to wear loafers instead of jack boots, despite the one quick pickup scene where they did.
 
THIS is the principle that has been followed in the past. What was intended for the character, and how did the costume designers want them to look? Adding to that, the Visual Guides have had many mistakes that have been shown over time. They’re not gospel. They’re handy *extra* evidence when needed, just like the action figures.
 
These characters are *intended* to wear standard OT style boots. Production realities and budgets meant they sort of grabbed what was available for a few background characters when supplies ran low. That doesn’t mean they were intended to wear FO boots.  et alone those weird hybrid things.
 
Option 2 is the principle of “no matter what, if we see it on screen, we allow it”.  That's a valid option, if not the choice *I* would make, but fine. We’d better push to start allowing Stormtroopers with no tube stripes, for one, because who cares about consistency if we can say technically it’s on screen? (or in a book?)
 
Now, all that said, these are not decisions that are locked in stone.  And if the situation changes, I expect us to update things to accommodate the change.  If we end up seeing 3 dozen officers in Andor, wearing these boots, that’s definitely on screen and intended, budget or not. And we adjust the CRL to allow it.  Once someone actually shows us a pair in hand that we can use for submission, that is.
 
Note that all of this is MY opinion, and where I would recommend we go with this.  If Robert agrees, that's a plus. LOL. This post is not intended to state the formal IOC command policy decision, and end all debate, should others feel strongly otherwise, but this IS the direction that I will be pushing for, as far as that goes.

The full CRL has been formally submitted to the LMO team for final approval.
 
This is the last step.  If approved, the CRL will go live shortly afterwards.  Else there may be some negotiating on minor points of wording (I would hope), then we would proceed.

Update!  The LMO team officially approved moving forward with this CRL.  So we'll start formally building the CRL on the back end next, using my text above as a starting point, then work together for more proofing and fine tuning the text that they agree with, negotiating any changes needed, and then they'll throw the switch.

My proposed draft follows.  I've incorporated features from a number of existing CRLs, plus suggestions from posts above, and cleaned up language throughout:
 
 
Required Costume Components
The following costume components are present and appear as described below.
 
Hair and appearance
Applicants may style hair, facial hair, eye color or use makeup to emulate any character that wears this costume, provided the example is from a licensed LFL source. When not emulating character appearance, applicants are encouraged but not required to adhere to conservative hair stylings and grooming of a military nature.  
Colored contact lenses
Colored contact lenses must be worn if required to accurately portray an alien character's inhuman eye coloring. Contacts giving the appearance of any natural human eye color may be worn to emulate a specific officer's configuration, if desired. All persons utilizing contact lenses are encouraged to first see their optometrist for a fitting.  
Hat, Olive
Hat is OPTIONAL only if a specific referenced licensed character’s uniform configuration is copied in full. Fabric is a medium weight suiting material exactly matching the tunic and pants. Cavalry Twill or a Gabardine style weave is most accurate. Color matches the tunic and pants. Base of the hat is conical, with a crown about 4" (101.6 mm) tall. Front and rear "flaps" overlap on the sides and are about 4" (101.6 mm) high. Front bill extends 3" down, decorated with (5) (6) or (7) concentric stitches. Imperial Code Disk positioned in the center of the front vertical "flap." OPTIONAL Level two certification (if applicable):
Code disk has NO notch in it on the outermost disk.  
Tunic
Fabric is a medium weight suiting material matching the pants (and hat, if present). Cavalry Twill or a Gabardine style weave is most accurate. Tunic is double-breasted with a left over right closure on the tapered yoke. Yoke comes up across the shoulder to the top shoulder seam. The standing collar has square corners and is between 1.25" (31.8 mm) to 2" tall, and closes snugly. The wearer's neck must not be visible between the closed collar. A modesty panel behind the collar closure is recommended to help with this, but is not required. Collar edges are closed with two eye hooks. There are code cylinder pockets on both outside panels of the jacket, from about half way between the top and bottom on the arm hole. Sleeves are long, and without decoration, cuffs or buttons. Sleeves contain 2 seams. One along the bottom and one along the back. Tunic is constructed with no top-stitching (stitches visible on the exterior surface of fabric) Fasteners on the uniform should not be visible. Uniform is to be pressed and free of a wrinkled appearance. OPTIONAL Level two certification (if applicable):
There is a dart in the top center of the tunic, this dart is between 2 inches (50.8mm) and 3 inches (76.2mm in length. There is a seam running the entire circumference of the tunic, dividing it along a line hidden by the uniform belt. The front placket of the tunic may omit this seam only if the uniform belt is worn in a manner which conceals the omission. The back of the tunic has princess seams that run vertically and turn outward to intersect the arm-hole seam at the vertical center. OPTIONAL Level three certification (if applicable):
Tunic is secured on the right side by snaps or buttons, not velcro. A lining is sewn in.  
Rank Bar
Rank consists of colored plastic tiles mounted on a single or double metal or metal looking bar(s). Worn on the left side of the tunic over the heart, aligned with the code cylinder pocket. Each bar is approximately 1" (25.4 mm) to 1.25" (31.75 mm) in height. Length is determined by chosen rank. Rank tile dimensions and spacing are appropriate and proportional to the sizing of the bar to allow for equidistant and even spacing from each other and the border of the bar: Rank tile dimensions are approximately 15 mm wide, 21 mm tall and 3.2 mm deep. - This is the R1/Solo size. OR Rank tile dimensions are approximately ½" (12.7 mm) width x ¾" (19 mm) height x 1⁄8" (3.2 mm) deep. - This is the OT/Mandalorian size. Rank tile sizes must all be of one or the other - Not to be intermixed. Please note that final dimensions of the bar may be proportional to the wearer. Rank bar corners are hard 90 degree angle or slightly rounded Rank tiles are translucent, rectangular, positioned side by side in a vertical orientation, and evenly spaced. Color, quantity, and combinations of the tiles/bars are determined by rank, and are appropriate to uniform type/color as supported by licensed reference. OPTIONAL Level two certification (if applicable):
Rank consists of colored plastic push buttons (with white to off white insert) mounted on a metal bar. OPTIONAL Level three certification (if applicable):
Rank chosen must be referenced from licensed reference.  
Code Cylinders
Between 1 to 4 per costume may be worn. Dosimeter style: True Dosimeter style with correct silver clip (no brass) and Blue top. If only one is worn, it is on the left side. OPTIONAL Level two certification (if applicable):
Only real or replica dosimeters are used.  
Belt
The belt is constructed from a non-textured leather or a leather-like material. Approximately 2" (50.8 mm) in width, up to 2.5” (63.5 mm) is acceptable. There are no loops on the belt. A single large snap or rivet is visible approximately 1" (25.4 mm) from the buckle. The belt may be worn with the snap to the right or left of the wearer. It is preferred to wear the snap to the left of the wearer, unless emulating a specific licensed character. The buckle is constructed from a horizontally brushed metal, or metal looking material. The buckle size is approximately 2 5/8“ (66.7 mm) high and 4 ⅛" (104.5 mm) wide with 0.5" (12.7 mm) radius rounded corners. Buckle is adorned with an un-notched Imperial Code Disk at the center.     Please refer to the Imperial Buckle reference page for information on accurate and inaccurate style buckles.

OPTIONAL Level two certification (if applicable):
Belt is made of leather. Belt has a groove at the top and bottom edge along the length of the belt. Buckle has a slight horizontal curve.  
Version One: Jodhpur Trousers, Olive
Fabric is a medium weight suiting material exactly matching the tunic. Cavalry Twill or a Gabardine style weave is most accurate. Version One trousers are flared riding breeches, with semi-stiff flares to the hip/thigh area. Breeches are worn with boots. Breeches are neatly pressed or ironed without creases. Pockets are acceptable, although are not visible with the tunic on.  
Version Two: Pants, Olive
Fabric is a medium weight suiting material exactly matching the tunic. Cavalry Twill or a Gabardine style weave is most accurate.    Version Two pants are straight leg in style, and rest on the top of the shoes without bunching or giving any sloppy appearance. Pants are neatly pressed or ironed with creases. Pockets are acceptable, although are not visible with the tunic on.  
Version One: Officer Boots
Knee-high, black, riding style, lace-less, smooth non-textured, leather or leather-like material. There are no buckles, snap tabs or decoration. Boots have conservative heels. A single stretch panel or zipper may be present, they are to be hidden on the inner part of the boot shaft. Not visible from the front, side or back. The top of the boots may be flat or Spanish Style, but not Cowboy or Super Hero (pointed at the front) style. OPTIONAL Level two certification (if applicable):
Boots do not have a zipper. OPTIONAL Level three certification (if applicable):
Boots are made of leather. Not vinyl or PVC. Exact replicas of English riding (dress) boots or Equestrian boots.  
Version Two: Officer Shoes
Black, smooth non-textured, and made of leather or leather-like material. The shoes are void of all decoration. If shoes have laces they are hidden above the hem of the pants. Shoes have a small conservative heel. Chelsea style boots are acceptable, subject to the same requirements as shoes. If worn, may only be paired with straight-leg trousers. OPTIONAL Level two certification (if applicable):
Shoes are well shined.  
Optional Accessories
Items below are optional costume accessories. These items are not required for approval, but if present appear as described below. If adding in an accessory after initial approval, the item still needs to be submitted to local GML for approval before use.
 
Gloves
Black, wrist length gloves constructed of a smooth, non-textured leather or leather-like material. Enclosed fingers. No buckles, straps, etc. OPTIONAL Level two certification (if applicable):
Gloves have a plain back and no visible adornments. Gloves made of leather. Gloves end just past the wrist.  
Trenchcoat
Made of a medium-weight waterproof fabric that is olive-green in color, closely matching the uniform color Fabric has a matte finish. Two flares at the breast overlap and close in the front, left breast over right. The collar continues around the neck and is approximately 3.5 inches wide. The inner facing of the upper collar may be of darker fabric but is not required. A seam runs down the arm on the outside, it begins at the costumers collar. Two inch long cuffed sleeves with a single button towards the end of the cuff. The cuff "strap" ends in a chevron shape. On the back, the storm shield has a pinch pleat at the top center of the shoulders. The coat ends mid-calf and is straight cut along the bottom edge. The coat below the belt has a split seam in the back. Two pocket flaps may appear at the costumer's hip, but are not required; if present, there should be no visible pocket stitching. The coat is worn either belted with the standard leather officer's belt, or loose.  
Belt boxes (Non-Saga style)
Dimensions are approximately  2" (50.8mm) wide by 3" (76.2 mm) tall by 1" x  (25.4mm) thick Two boxes to be worn vertically, one each on either side of the belt buckle OPTIONAL Level two certification (if applicable):
Belt boxes are made of metal.  
Dress Shirt
A white dress shirt is worn under the tunic. The collar and sleeve cuffs are slightly visible, protruding from under the olive tunic.  
Holster
Made of black leather or leather-like material. OPTIONAL Level two certification (if applicable):
Holster is affixed via a single loop over the belt. Holster is made of leather.  
SE-14R Light Repeating Blaster
The barrel detailing is evident with the cocking lever and slider in place. The ejection port is also evident. The scope mount looks similar to the magazine but smaller in size. The scope does not protrude past the blaster body.  
 
DISCUSSION:
 
Are there any examples of green-uniformed officers wearing rain ponchos?  How about the green officers without gloves (read: should gloves be under optional or required)?
 
The "Appearance" section allowing makeup to alter the skin needs language to specifically prohibit blackface... I'll noodle on the wording, unless someone has a good suggestion.

Thanks for all the hard work that went into this and all involved. It's been interesting to be part of the process. I learned about things and get to have a Shiney new costume to use this weekend to meet the man himself!

This CRL is now live!  Congrats @whitmers!
 
https://databank.501st.com/databank/Costuming:ID_Moff-Gideon
 
The Legion has started promoting it.  Champagne all around!  (blue milk, whatever floats your boat!)

This CRL has been submitted to the LMOs for approval.

Hi there, I only just stumbled across this thread today and have to say that I am quite shocked by some of the disrespectful comments aimed at the Spec Ops detachment. As a long serving staff member of Spec Ops (currently DL) we do not tolerate this kind of behaviour from anyone on our forums. We take great pride working on our CRL's and adhere to the CRL development guidelines 110%. If you have issue with any of our CRLs you should bring that up with us on our forums as we are happy to take feedback.
 
Thanks
 

Hi, bargain basement SWAT team Lt. Sunber here.
 
For what it's worth, under the "Character Approval" in the "CRL and New Costume Survival Guide", it states:
 
The way it's written, it sure sounds like some leeways can be given. A full back reference is not required as some have stated on this thread. Legion costumes have had a track record of getting updated over the years as more reference materials emerge. A "complete ensemble" costume and CRL has been developed closely following available reference images. Just my two cents - when there are conflicting opinions I like to draw people back to the original text (to take feelings and assumptions out of the equation).

I had denoted the particular images as "low res placeholders" right under the photos, when I added them earlier today, but I just got the final images (gloves and boots), so everything is current now.
 
I agree it would be nice to get a nice shot of the inside of the cloak, but according to the costumer, it's a bit complicated to get the shot, logistically, and frankly you can see everything important about the inside in the top photo, with the costumer wearing the cloak, so I'm not really pushing for it.  If we can get one after the fact, it can always be added later.

Gotcha.  Your boots DO look very good, of course, and I think they should be approvable, but we can't ignore the clear references we have now.  So I think what I'll do is move the inside zipper requirement to Level 2.  I've made that edit in the OP, now.
 
You can probably add a zipper to your boots fairly inexpensively, without needing all new boots, if you want to go for Level 2, but this way you can still be approved without needing to change them.  (Assuming the LMOs don't disagree)

Hi folks.
 
The LMO received a request from IOC to include the imperial enlisted flight suit  in the 501st roster of costumes. 
 
If it passes our LMO poll in 7 days time we'll be back here to help with the CRL.
 
Thanks for your patience,
 
-Eric

Hi folks.
 
The LMO received a request from IOC to include Moff Gideon Season 1 in the 501st roster of costumes. 
 
If it passes our LMO poll in 7 days time we'll be back here to help with the CRL.
 
Thanks for your patience,
 
-Eric

Hi folks.
 
The LMO received a request from IOC to include the imperial officer flight suit in the 501st roster of costumes. 
 
If it passes our LMO poll in 7 days time we'll be back here to help with the CRL.
 
Thanks for your patience,
 
-Eric

Hi folks.
 
The LMO received a request from IOC to include the imperial army operations office in the 501st roster of costumes. 
 
If it passes our LMO poll in 7 days time we'll be back here to help with the CRL.
 
Thanks for your patience,
 
-Eric

Hi everyone,
 
Here's to hoping Greene or someone can wrangle a back view of this costume out of LFL. 
 
Bob asked about our process decrying a lack of transparency. There isn't much to it. If we're not already involved on the respective detachment forums, we'll get word from a detachment about a possible inclusion (usually via lmo@501st.com) of a new to the legion costume, we discuss it in the LMO area on the legion forums, and we vote on it. 
 
One improvement we intend to make (as suggested by Rikki today) is to put a time limit on the vote and discussion. It'll be a 7 day period to ensure the detachment isn't waiting on us. 
 
In past years the decision was made unilaterally, usually with input from the team, by the lead LMO. Last year Nathan instituted an all LMO vote for such things which Kris and I continued on. Going even further back in history the LMO made all the decisions with zero transparency often just authoring CRLs himself (when I was DL of FISD the LMO dropped the jes gistang CRL on me without even consulting with the detachment). 
 
I cannot speak for past LMOs, but personally having been around the LMO block a few times, I've been very consistent in requiring front, back and side references. This time the entire team agreed. I have and will continue to apply this standard, even to comics, trading cards, and other non-screen references too. 
 
What’s a little ironic is that you can find threads on the legion forum accusing me of not believing in accuracy. I often take a much softer stance on the need to put every single detail with measurements in our requirements. The Greedo CRL being my very favorite of all of them. Here we are being lambasted on social media and the forums by a campaign against our desire for accuracy. 
 
I do feel terrible for the costumer who made the Sith Eternal Officer. I harbor no small amount of guilt for our decision even if I think it is the right one. 
 
If you look back on the history of new to the legion costumes you will find wild inconsistencies having to do with whatever LMO team was ratified that year. Precedence is often thrown out the window year to year when there is a change in LMO. That is the nature of the LMO office. You'll find this is true with your GCOs too. 
 
The system where the LMO decides if a costume is acceptable for inclusion in the 501st was created when the legion was smaller, and then radically updated by Anderson along the way in 2016. Given our growth, if you feel that there may be a better process I invite you to contact your GCO or DL (both of your reps have access to council) to propose an amendment to the operating protocols. 
 
The question becomes... How do we move forward?
 
My suggestion is to start a thread of all the potential new to the legion costumes or major edits to existing ones and start discussing them as early as possible. I'm happy to start it. I'd prefer a collaboration from the get go to avoid where we are now with this costume. 
 
I totally understand the anger and frustration. It's a crappy situation. Let’s work together to avoid it in the future. 
 
Thank you,
 
—Eric

Email sent. Hopefully they’ll have something they can share.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I don’t have a horse in this race mate. I’m not doing one of these costumes.
But I do want to see fairness and consistency in this process and that has not been the case.

Hi, bargain basement SWAT team Lt. Sunber here.
 
For what it's worth, under the "Character Approval" in the "CRL and New Costume Survival Guide", it states:
 
The way it's written, it sure sounds like some leeways can be given. A full back reference is not required as some have stated on this thread. Legion costumes have had a track record of getting updated over the years as more reference materials emerge. A "complete ensemble" costume and CRL has been developed closely following available reference images. Just my two cents - when there are conflicting opinions I like to draw people back to the original text (to take feelings and assumptions out of the equation).

Me again.
And the personal attacks need to stop.
Let's stick to facts.
"Oh that's rich Jeff, you started with nuking the LMOs" I can already hear some say.
I came in hot, but what I said (other than expressing my disdain for the Army CRLs) was factual.
The "back rule" isn't a rule, it's more of a suggestion.
And it gets applied unevenly.
But not maliciously so.
Let's table the name calling portion of this dumpster fire, and figure out why the LMO team doesn't think there's enough reference.
- Jeff
 

Hi, bargain basement SWAT team Lt. Sunber here.
 
For what it's worth, under the "Character Approval" in the "CRL and New Costume Survival Guide", it states:
 
The way it's written, it sure sounds like some leeways can be given. A full back reference is not required as some have stated on this thread. Legion costumes have had a track record of getting updated over the years as more reference materials emerge. A "complete ensemble" costume and CRL has been developed closely following available reference images. Just my two cents - when there are conflicting opinions I like to draw people back to the original text (to take feelings and assumptions out of the equation).

Hi, bargain basement SWAT team Lt. Sunber here.
 
For what it's worth, under the "Character Approval" in the "CRL and New Costume Survival Guide", it states:
 
The way it's written, it sure sounds like some leeways can be given. A full back reference is not required as some have stated on this thread. Legion costumes have had a track record of getting updated over the years as more reference materials emerge. A "complete ensemble" costume and CRL has been developed closely following available reference images. Just my two cents - when there are conflicting opinions I like to draw people back to the original text (to take feelings and assumptions out of the equation).

Hi, bargain basement SWAT team Lt. Sunber here.
 
For what it's worth, under the "Character Approval" in the "CRL and New Costume Survival Guide", it states:
 
The way it's written, it sure sounds like some leeways can be given. A full back reference is not required as some have stated on this thread. Legion costumes have had a track record of getting updated over the years as more reference materials emerge. A "complete ensemble" costume and CRL has been developed closely following available reference images. Just my two cents - when there are conflicting opinions I like to draw people back to the original text (to take feelings and assumptions out of the equation).