Hello troopers. ID-19812 from the NER in New Jersey. I have not been on here in awhile. I find that I use the forums quite a bit when building the costumes, but then real life and trooping happens, or you begin building a new costume and move onto that forum. I saw a post saying that in order to remain a member of a particular detachment, you need to also be somewhat active in the forums of that detachment as well. So I just wanted to come on here and say that I still have my Imperial Security Bureau Officer (non saga) costume and enjoy wearing it although it has been a while. The tunic is quite tight and even gaining about 5 pounds make it dangerous to popping open. But I will slim down and get it on again although i still find it weird not wearing a helmet. So yes alive and kicking and still a member of this community. Be well and keep trooping.
Sean
Hello! I’m new here! Very interested in the charitable aspect of 501st, pleased to meet you!
Working on ISB and ISO uniforms, non-saga. Let the finding-level-three-boots-that-fit-anxiety begin!
I was going to post on the ranks as well, and I don’t follow some of them, then saw this thread. It’s a good point that one’s real age should figure, so I am probably best sticking with Colonel or Brigadier!
Testing my assumptions/things I read here/thinking out loud: @buckrogersbarker @kman @vonmoen @Alay, for potential interest:
Some edits for clarity/corrections/additions as well since posting:
1. First square on the left determines branch of the imperial service. Blue = navy, Red = Army, Yellow = Research.
2. Red or blue on the left followed by yellow to its right = Operations for the relevant branch. (This is why the CRL for ISB states no yellow in an ISB rank (white tunic). Because it doesn’t do ..uh, ‘operations’. None it cares to admit to on rank badges?). We should understand that “Operations” means non-combat arms support and logistics to the relevant branch.
3. After the first button of the branch-determining colour, any buttons to its right being some other colour (per the above) indicates their seniority within that rank. E.g., One blue then one red = Naval Lieutenant (junior grade), second “step”. One red then one blue = Army First Lieutenant, second step of seniority. Three red buttons and one blue button = Army Major second grade, which would outrank someone with four red buttons.
4. Yellow on the left followed by red or blue to its right = seniority within the relevant branch’s Research.
5. So, number of buttons progressing to the right = actual rank… for the most part. Seniority is then indicated within that rank by different coloured buttons on the right progressing back toward the left. So e.g., 5 red buttons = Army Colonel, first grade (step one). One red, four yellow = Colonel in Army Operations, fifth grade (fifth step). So Galen Erso is a Research Army Colonel, second grade (four yellow and one red, and would be outranked by someone with three yellow, two red). One blue, three yellow = Navy Operations Commander; one yellow three blue = Navy Research Commander, both grade four (equivalent ranks, seniormost grade of Commander).
6. There doesn’t appear to be known Lieutenant Colonels (Army) or Lieutenant Commanders (Navy, speculation: unless this is following an old convention of calling them both Colonel/Commander in the canon, while speculating let’s say, that 5 buttons grade 1-3 = LCOL/LCDR and grade 4-5 or something is full Colonel/Commander?)
7. Flag officers: by the above logic, the senior most admirals and generals are at the bottom of the rank chart (so e.g., the seniormost army general has only one red and five blue).
8. Number of buttons consequently also = number of grades to that rank, so six buttons = six grades of flag officer (speculation, so maybe this is inspired by armies that have a Colonel General and a Marshal?)
Army (&Ranks here are my speculative logic, with some support in the canon)
Brigadier (grade 1, six red buttons)
Major General (grade 2, five red, one blue)
Lieutenant General (grade 3, four red, two blue)
Colonel General (grade 4, three red, three blue)
Full General of the X Army (grade 5, two red, four blue) Marshal (grade 6, one red, five blue)
For Army Operations, replace blue above for yellow; for Army Research, replace red for yellow and blue for red).
(The USSR actually had a six star Chief Marshal = Generalissimus = Stalin, but had no Brigadiers (flag army officers started with Major General). The UK called its 5 stars “Air Marshal” or “Field Marshal” and the US just called it a “5 star”).
Navy:*#. (&Ranks here are my speculative logic, with some support in the canon)
Commodore (Admiral grade 1, six blue buttons)
Rear Admiral, 2nd Class (grade 2, five blue, one red)
Rear Admiral, 1st Class (grade 3, four blue, two red)
Vice Admiral (grade 4, three blue, three red)
Admiral of the X Fleet (grade 5, two blue, four red)
GrossAdmiral (grade 6, one blue, five red. Not to be mistaken with a rank like Thrawn’s as Grand Admiral = appointment = second rank bar. Thrawn’s is probably the most difficult to interpret, but probably just indicates a ‘new and unique rank badge was needed’).
For Navy Operations, replace red above for yellow; for Navy Research, replace blue for yellow and red for blue).
*USSR had a senior Captain (1st Class = Commodore, normal ranks thereafter up to a Fleet Admiral (four star) and Marshal = Admiral of the Soviet Navy).
#Germany had a Flottillenadmirale (Commodore), two grades of Rear Admiral, two grades of Vice Admiral, and a 5 star = Marshal = Grossadmiral = grade 6 (Donitz).
&Note this aligns with ANH, when Vader chokes Admiral Motti (two blue, four red = a young Admiral grade 5) at the command table. In alignment with the above, Motti was a Full Admiral of the Imperial Navy and of the Death Star and its garrisons (that’s not worth a second rank bar?) The ISB “Colonel” Yularin (served under General Skywalker), is said to have resigned as an Admiral and joined the ISB (white tunic, white hair, white moustache). But per the above, his rank bar of three red, three blue = General grade four, i.e., Colonel General… probably abbreviated to just Colonel (like Colonel/Commander for LCOL/LCDR), since everyone at that table is a flag officer. As we would expect, this means there’s a ton of high brass from all branches around Tarkin’s command table / meeting in ANH… ISB Colonel General, Navy Full Admiral, Army Research Lieutenant General, lowest ranking guy is the one with the sideburns, who is an Army Brigadier, i.e., probably Stormtrooper Brigade “Commander” as Motti addresses him).
9. There are known issues, e.g., an ISO in ANH (black tunic), with six buttons, four blue, two yellow that is called “Commander” by Vader, when per the above he appears to be a Navy Operations Admiral, grade three (this is highlighted as anomalous in red in the rank chart. This might be explained by the fact that a Navy Admiral grade three (i.e., three star) would normally hold an appointment as a regional Fleet “Commander” and a second in command (“Deputy Commander”) of that district. Importantly, this highlights the rank vs appointment usage of words like “Commander” when it’s usage is based on an understood but unexplained context ((Fleet) “Commander” is a much higher appointment than the lower rank “Commander (Navy)”. Problem with this: he doesn’t have a second rank bar, which you’d expect (but Motti doesn’t have one either…) Or, speculation, Vader is using “Commander” in the vernacular (for someone in ‘charge of the troops’), and doesn’t really care what rank he is, he’s still a subordinate!)
10. The second rank bar is seemingly obscure (hard to explain why some people have one you would think shouldn’t, and why some you think should do not…) It’s known to reflect an appointment vs rank that crosses jurisdictions and is “galaxy wide” (could be holding one rank while holding a different title).
10.2. If I was to guess, I would say that when the second bar appears, whatever appointment it contextually reflects takes precedent over that person’s actual military rank (that’s its point). For example, suppose the new Provost Marshal (Chief of the Military Police) is a only a Major. He might be wearing two rank bars to reflect his appointment as Provost, and might be addressed as Provost or Marshal (not to be mistaken with a 6-star Army General!) He would not be addressed as Major, in respect for his role, but his rank bar might only have four buttons x2 bars, red on top, blue on bottom. This would appear anomalous, because his rank is lower than the normal rank of someone holding that appointment (e.g., “General” Veers). Another way to think of it would be someone acting in a role higher than their actual rank (possible to be an E-8 First Sergeant while being the acting Sergeant Major of a unit, if you like). Also, suppose this Major, the new Provost, tried to arrest a Colonel. Without the second bar, the Colonel has no indication of who this bloke is, he appears to be some random insubordinate Major with no power over him!
10.3. If I were to guess, I would say that when the second bar appears, all the business of tracking seniority within the rank that goes on for single row rank bars (with different coloured titles on the left) then stops. This is the case since for that person, rank seniority doesn’t matter, their appointment takes precedent. This is why we don’t see different colours usually on the top bar where two bars are present (Thrawn’s is unique in this regard?). This might also explain why Tarkin’s top bar is solid blue, when there’s no way he’s only a one star Commodore!
10.4. This suggests e.g., Krennic is an ISB Brigadier General (white tunic, in R1 he appears with only the red, single bar with the rain cloak, a flashback which is pre-appointment as Director?), but later on he has a second bar that is blue when he is a “Director” (“Fleet Admiral”) of an R&D area. Per the above, I might have expected the second bar to be yellow (?), since his appointment as Director is in a weapons research and development area… (?)
10.5. Why does General Veers have a second bar that’s blue (lol, navy = space airmobile?) and less buttons than a general should? Does he command all the AT-ATs across the galaxy = second bar? (Speculation, his actual rank is Army Major, but his appointment is AT-AT brigade commander = brigadier general = “(Brigadier) General Veers”?) Ack! Might be a good example of how the appointment always does take precedent over the actual rank (due to battlefield casualties, the ranking officer in the brigade is a Major? Ouch… and now after ESB, we need the seniormost captain!)
10.6. It appears there’s a new set of rules when a second bar appears, and those rules are obscure… but some logic appears to be provided by the examples in the rank chart. A cross-jurisdictional ‘appointment’ (indicated by second rank bar) of “Army Captain” in the rank sheet (three red top bar, three blue lower bar), followed by a “Captain, Supervisor” (three red on top bar, two blue and one yellow in the lower bar), would seem to indicate appointment seniority = grade is indicated by yellow on the right in the lower bar. Note this (sometimes) also aligns with the Moff ranks, with higher ranks having more yellow in the lower right. The animated shows seem to garble this situation…
10.7. A Moff (Regional Governor, appointment) appears to be the rank equivalent of a military Colonel (five buttons, but x 2 rank bars), while Governor or Grand Moff is six buttons x 2 ranks bars, the military rank equivalent of a “Fleet Admiral” appointment. (Moff/Governor are political ranks, and strike me like Duke and Grand Duke in Europe = determined by the size of the region governed / seniority). Since Tarkin had military and political rank, this might explain the colour flip between the rank bars of e.g., Tarkin vs. Thrawn… and Grand Admiral vs. Grand Moff. I sense a logic to Tarkin’s rank badge, which was probably meant to show that in addition to being a Grand Moff/Governor, he’s also an Admiral (solid blue bar x6 buttons…)
Sorry if this is “captain obvious”, but it helped me at least to talk it out!
It’s remarkable and pretty clear someone put a lot of thought into this rank system just to underpin the imperial officer uniforms for ANH (and that they had a lot of current and historical military knowledge to devise it based on a hybrid of different military hierarchies and …overinflated flag officer ranks present in the USSR in particular… lol)
Edit: So I didn’t intend to nerd out to this degree, but it kinda snowballed…
Might as well add Bridge/Scanning Crew as an option, a flight suit is easier on the wallet when it comes time to "zombie it out". Not to mention, I have a spare or two that I wouldn't mind using for this.
Well I picked up a copy of the Star Wars Imperial Handbook a while back and was reading through it to learn a bit more about the Imperial Army, which is under represented in the movies. Page 64 of the handbook briefly discusses the 4 basic variations of the Army uniform and unfortunately (for me, at least) only show illustrations of the 2 Vehicle command Crewers (AT-AT and AT-ST). Page forward to page 86 which depicts an Imperial Garrison and it appears to show a large group of troopers with helmets and armor carrying blasters.
I really like the concept of an Imperial Infantry Trooper, the lowest, most basic member of the Military. My question is; are there any other examples of Imperial Army Troopers in the wide world of the Star Wars universe other than what I've found in the handbook? And if so, how many examples would be needed to be considered for the possibility of approval by the 501st?
I think the closest representation we got so far were the two scouts waiting around for entry into Nevarro. But at least they nailed the description for the WO in the CRL: "Warrant Officers, serving generally as non-commissioned enlisted officers, do not have a specific task as other ranks do. These officers instead specialize in particular fields that other crew members have little or no knowledge of." Although they forgot the part about mysteriously disappearing prior to any mandatory formations.
Yeah, it's a pity that enlisted ranks got overlooked in the Star Wars sagas. I'd like to see more representation in the NCO ranks as well, although I believe a few showed up in the Imperial Army in the Andor series. And just for the record, Dan, I earned my sham shield back in 1977.
I'm kind of in the same boat... Dan. So it's a Lieutenant rank for me!
Unrelated, but still kinda sorta related... Is there a SW equivalent of the "E-4 Mafia" in terms of characters or ranks? Or at least a Pvt. Snuffy? I know @vonmoen must know the answer to this! Don't leave a 19E/19K hanging!
I figure the rank should match the relative age of the member. A young member in their early 20s would more likely be of a lower rank (IE, cadet or Lieutenant) while members of a certain age (ice age, like me) would probably hold a senior rank like Colonel or General. I think it would be rather odd to find a 20 year old Admiral in the ranks, but there's no real reason that you can't.
vonmoen got a reaction from Earl in 98777 - Bridge Crew reporting for duty!
vonmoen got a reaction from adqhisres in Imperial Navy Trooper & Bridge Crew Communication Headset
vonmoen got a reaction from DarkG in How do you choose rank insignia?
vonmoen got a reaction from chicken45 in Blackwing Officer - zombie
vonmoen got a reaction from dcx13 in Imperial Army Troopers