kman
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Posts posted by kman
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3 hours ago, Cooper said:
@kman Would you recommend a rubber se-14r and if so where would you get one? If you don't know I found this on etsy but the finish is a bit rough. Couldn't find ANYBODY else selling rubber ones.
https://www.etsy.com/listing/1205060041/se-14r-blaster-rubber
Sadly, I'm not aware of any good sources for good rubber SE-14Rs right now. Else I'd be buying one myself LOL
There are a couple of rubber ones at some small Etsy shops... the one you found, and at least one other. I remain unimpressed with the quality, however.
There's a local maker in SoCal who makes high quality rubber blasters. He's been talking about adding the SE-14R to his repertoire for a while now. Unfortunately he's also not super fast at finishing things, so I suspect it's going to be a bit longer before he actually brings anything like that to market. (Like... I'd be surprised if it happens within a year)
I'm definitely keeping my eyes peeled for a good option, though, and I'll be sure to broadcast the word when a solid option pops up on the market. I know there are quite a few who would love one.
Meanwhile, 3D printed options are probably your best (and only?) option, at the moment.
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Welcome aboard, Zachary! Glad you are here.
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Yes, the way the tunic opens is definitely a construction detail that I wish had been made more clear in the original CRL. The tunic requirements state:
Quote- Tunic is double-breasted with a left over right closure on the tapered yoke.
- Yoke comes up across the shoulder to the top shoulder seam.
I think this is the intent of those lines, but IMO it doesn't come across especially clearly. I am not sure I want to wade into that level of a re-write, at the moment. But if someone comes up with a really good way to phrase that, I'm not against it.
Your point on the "piping detail" is also absolutely correct... looking at the references, it's the same bias tape construction I was referring to in my post about requiring this in the officer hats. We should use my language from that update here, as well, since it's a LOT more explicit and clear than "piping detail"... especially because that's not piping.
Thanks for the extra reference photos... those are helpful! A CRL update thread is definitely a good place to add them.
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4 hours ago, Tarkin99933 said:
Hello @kman
I have some questions first. Is it right that you want to update the CRL texts on this CRL and new photos made in better light conditions?
If so, I'm going to make better photos because I'm the originator and I would like to keep it this way.
Fabric color: From my point of view olive/grey is still correct. Keep in mind that a fabric color, especially if it's a "marl wool mix twill", depends on the viewers perception, the camera, the lightning, color grading, scene, location etc. A fabric can apear grey in one scene but in the other scene it apears olive or green. This causes unnecessarly long discussions wich could be avoided if we deal reasonably with this topic. (Wich we do, no offence of course
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Tunic vent: I totally agree that the vent should a basic level arquirement.
Trousers bead/trim: I agree that the bead/trim on the outside of the jodhpur courves should a level 2 requirement.
Boots: I agree that the grooved lines at the edges of the boot cuffs should be a level 2 requirement. The maroon color is a mistake and can be deleted entirely.
Belt: Yes the belt grooves should be a level 2 requirement. There is only one loop on the left side of the buckle yes.
Gloves: That's a good idea. It would give a level 2 requirement a better sense.
Rank bar: I think that the raised areas between the red/blue tiles should be a basic level requirement. It's easy to get them from Klaus Windstosser (Klaus' Frässstüberl on Facebook), so it's not difficult to source them. He made mine.
I will make a photo of the double stacked rank bar.
The line about the curved thing can be deleted yes.
https://www.facebook.com/klausfraesstueberl?locale=de_DE
https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=832821535307869&set=pcb.832823635307659&locale=de_DE
Yes, please, I would like to collect as many opinions as possible. Ideally, I would like to be able to use language that will permit a range of colors of this, but still within the spectrum of accuracy. Dark green, in the color that the current tunic photo appears to be, because of the lighting, is nowhere near correct:
This doesn't even look like the same tunic as the top CRL photo, due to the color. If you could take some photos that show it's true colors better, that would be perfect, thank you! (and the hat and the pants, also, please)
Then we just need to figure out how to phrase it, to include colors between the greenish and brownish tones, through the gray.
It sounds like you fully agree with the rest of my proposal, with the possible exception of the rank bar. While I personally agree with you that I would prefer to have the very unique layout be a basic level requirement, unfortunately, while Klaus is a great vendor, one single source of purchase is not a great look for a worldwide organization. If there were at least 1-2 more vendors out there, spread out more geographically, I might be more inclined to consider that. But in the interests of inclusion, I think we should continue to allow more flat rank bars at the basic approval level, and keep the more accurate rank bars for Level 2. Much like with regular Imperial Officer rank bars, we will allow the simple acrylic chips for basic approval, but require real pushbuttons for higher level approvals. And those pushbuttons are MUCH easier to come by, worldwide, than this specific rank bar. Anyone super enthusiastic about this costume is likely to want to be more accurate anyway, and at least with this change, they are better pointed in the right direction.
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2 hours ago, ImperialHighness said:
I’m interested in starting a build for Emerie Karr… does she have her own thread? I’m not finding one but this is the one place I found that references her.
No one has started serious work on that costume yet, so go ahead and start up a thread and please post as many reference photos as possible.
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4 hours ago, PiotrRasputin said:
Just putting this out there for the various levels (not just for the hats), but has there been discussion to show side by side a difference between basic, L2 and L3 approved costume pieces in the CRLs? I think it would be a benefit to those that want to attain those higher levels of accuracy to see examples of what we are looking for.
Worth considering, particularly for the most popular costumes. Difficult for more rare ones, of course. Although considering the amount of variation possible, at all levels, that might be tough. Especially taking "fit" into consideration.
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Opening this up for discussion, before we put in this change across the board, on all CRLs which use standard Imperial hats.
Hat Flaps: There are two main ways to sew an Imperial Hat: A simpler, easier way, and a slightly more complex, more accurate way. This is regarding the edges of those flaps that surround the main hat body. The CyberSeams pattern, which is commonly used, goes with the easy way. This pattern delivers flaps comprised of two layers of fabric, with the outside edges of the curves folded under and a single seam following the flaps just in from the edges. The seam emulates the appearance of the line that is present on onscreen hats, in a very simplistic way. The edge visibly shows the two parts coming together. "Sewing Jenny" was a LONG-time vendor for IOC, and she sewed hats with this method, too.
Accurate hat construction, on the other hand, used on ALL on-screen hats, involves the extra step of using a strip of the same fabric as the hat, sewn onto the edge and folded over, to cover the two pieces coming together. The sewing term is "bias tape" but it's specifically bias tape made from the same fabric as the rest of the hat, folded over to cover the "raw" edge of the two pieces of fabric. Very commonly-used technique for professionals. And not actually all that hard, but the simpler CyberSeams pattern did not include this detail, probably to make it easier, and it "fakes" the outer edge appearance seen on accurately-constructed hats.
Sewing Jenny Hat with folded edges:
Unknown make hat with accurate wrapped edges:
Almost all larger commercial hat makers use the proper construction. Here is an Anovos hat (used, and very rumpled from shipping), and a WampaWear hat:
And here's one from a smaller Etsy Vendor, PilotBay:
It's really only those hand-making their hats using the free CyberSeams pattern, and a few small vendors out there (who have done minimal research and are basically using the same pattern), who do not already have this feature. Even the cheap Disney Parks hat used a (poor) version of this edge-taped construction. (the edge tape was literally folded over and topstitched right over it, rather than the only slightly more complicated method of making it properly, but hey, at least it's not a raw edge)
I was going to add a ton of reference images showing this is present on all on-screen Imperial hats, but I decided not to bother. Any simple Google search will show this, clearly, on even moderate resolution images. I'll just put a few quick ones here, as exemplary, of Ozzel and Jerjerrod from ESB/ROTJ, respectively, and Tala, from Kenobi, since I happened to have these handy:
Now, before anyone gets overly anxious: I do not want to make any changes at the basic approval level, or even Level 2. BUT I do feel that, if you want to claim top Level 3 accuracy, your hat should have the proper construction, on something that is quite visible when you know what you're looking at. So this CRL update would ONLY involve Level 3 Imperator approvals.
So: For Level 3 approval, ALL Imperial hats should have flap edges which are bias tape wrapped, with the same fabric as the rest of the hat. We can add this line as follows (again, text pulled from the Security Officer CRL, but most match this language pretty closely), or I am open to rewording this if someone has a better idea:
Quote- Front and rear “flaps” overlap on the sides, with the back flap over the front, and are about 4 inches (101.6 mm) high.
- All "flap" outer edges shall be wrapped with bias tape made from the same fabric as the rest of main hat material.
- Front bill extends 3 inches down, decorated with 5, 6 or 7 concentric stitches.
This is a pretty loose description of the accurate process, which would even allow those Disney hats that have topstitched tape to still qualify. But the very simplest of hats would be excluded, from this top level.
Thoughts?
- bobafett4ever and chicken45
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I've recently been undertaking a review of IOC CRLs, trying to get them updated based on real world use by applicants and GMLs, which is where theory and intent often clashes against the cold reality of large numbers of differing interpretations LOL
Up first, just because it worked out that way, is this "Republic/Imperial Fleet Officer" CRL:
https://databank.501st.com/databank/Costuming:ID_Fleet_Officer
I am preparing to make the changes and updates to this CRL, as listed below. I would like to open up my plans for discussion and feedback first, however, so others can weigh in and I'm not doing this in secret on my own. So this is your chance to speak up if there's anything else that could be improved, or if you have reasons to disagree with any of the changes.
Original CRL development thread is here:
A couple of changes applicable to several categories, first:
Fabric & Color: The fabric is currently simply listed as (from the Hat portion):
"Olive/Grey fabric is a medium weight suiting material matching the pants and tunic.
Gabardine style weave is most accurate."
The original fabric was far more gray than green. Following are photos of the screen-used costume from Episode III, provided by Cedric in the original CRL development thread:
I could use some suggestions on how to word the coloration and fabric, better than it currently is.
We need to clarify the color to be more gray than green, because "olive/gray" has been widely misinterpreted. Looks like the originals were VERY gray, mixed with some browns, in a textured twill fabric. It shows up a little greenish under some lighting conditions, although that was not the intended appearance. It is not the usual Feldgrau stuff we are so used to seeing, and it's not a cavalry twill.
The current CRL model shows more greenish than I would like, unfortunately, which is not really what is represented on screen.
I took some crops from 4K screenshots, so these are as good as it is going to get about how the costumes are intended to look, onscreen, without any added coloration from screen calibration, etc. To my eye, the intent that these appear gray, much like the final photo above, seems pretty clear. The brownish/greenish tint in the photos above is coming from the warm lighting above them. The true color is better shown in the final photo, which has very different lighting and looks a LOT more gray... as we see below:
Next, regarding fabric, take good look at the closeups of the hat and rank bar, in that first batch of photos above. The fabric type used is technically a "marl wool twill". "Marl" simply means multiple colors of thread combined to give that textured, mottled appearance. From a distance they look like a single color, but up closer, you can clearly see multiple colors twisting together (not mixed), in addition to the twill weave lines. (those diagonal lines on the fabric are characteristic of "twill"). This, of course, complicates the color discussion a bit, since no single color is exactly right... it's a combination of two different colors in one fabric, and they don't mix completely and uniformly the way a single dye lot fabric would.
Making everything worse, the CRL photos for the main three individual soft parts are, unfortunately, VERY dark, and make the tunic look a LOT more "dark green" than it actually is. (Comparing it to the full CRL model photo at the top, which has better lighting). I would like to get some updated photos of the hat, tunic, and pants with better lighting, so they can at least reflect what they truly are, more accurately to reality than the current ones.
Tunic: The tunic has a vent (split) in the center of the back skirt. This is very visible in the CRL image, but not mentioned at all in the text. As this is part of the basic tunic construction, this should be a basic level requirement.
Pants: Looking over the screen used costume photos again, in the closeup of the pants, you can clearly see there is a bead or trim line going down the outside of the jodphur curves, along the seam. This should be added as a Level 2 requirement.
Boots: The screen used costume photos show the boot cuffs very clearly, which is really nice. One thing I definitely noticed is the cuff has grooved lines all around the edges (much like ROTJ and later-style Imperial belts). This is not mentioned in the CRL, and should be. At a minimum it should be a Level 2 detail. I suggest: "Cuffs have a groove inset, following along the top and bottom edges." Oh, and somehow there is a L3 requirement for the boot cuff to be Maroon in color? That's obviously a mistake of some sort, and it needs to be deleted entirely.
Belts: Similarly, as I just mentioned, the belt also has the grooved lines shared by all Imperial belts from ROTJ forward. Level 2 requirement, for sure. Also, a mistake needs to be corrected: The belt does require a belt loop, as the CRL indicated, but there should only be one belt loop, to the left of the buckle (wearer's perspective), not on both sides as it says now.
Gloves: The gloves shown in the costume exhibit, and clearly worn by all the officers above, are very long. See the last two screencaps, above. The CRL does note "Gloves cover wrist." which is good, but it's more than that. I suggest we add a L2 requirement: "Gloves extend sufficiently past the wrist that no skin is exposed when arms are stretched forward."Rank bar: The screen-used rank badges have raised areas on the bars, between the buttons. This is shown in the current CRL Rank bar entry. I think those raised areas should be added, but perhaps only as a Level 3 detail, since that will be difficult (but not impossible, clearly) to source. Also, I would like include a photo of the double-stacked rank bar, if we can get one, since that's the version seen more commonly than the single row, and it's quite unique, with it's differing widths for the two rows. Additionally, this line "The mounted tiles are slightly horizontally curved upwards in the middle." in level 2 should be deleted entirely. There is no horizontal upwards curve present. They're quite flat and normal, in that regard.
@Tarkin99933 As you were the originator of this CRL, I'd love your feedback in particular.
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1 minute ago, Tarkin99933 said:
Yes it is a screen used costume.
You can add the trim/seam on the outside of the jodhpur trousers as a L2 requirement.
The groove on the boot cuffs should be a L2 requirement.
It's not easy to spot the vent I know, but it's there.
There should just be one loop on the left side of the belt.
Thanks, I agree, overall.
Oh, one last thing: The CRL states the boot cuff should be Maroon color, as a Level 3 detail. This... seems like an error, and that should simply be deleted entirely?
QuoteOPTIONAL Level three certification (if applicable):
- Cuffs are maroon in color.
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40 minutes ago, Tarkin99933 said:
I've reuploaded the reference photos again. There is a vent at the back.
Yes, I see it! Thank you.
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1 hour ago, Tarkin99933 said:
I've reuploaded the refernce photos again already.
There is a vent at the back and the fabric is a marl wool mix twill and not feldgrau fabric used for other officer uniforms.
Whoops, sorry, the Feldgrau question was a completely different costume situation, not related to this at all.
Thank you for those reference pics! Are those from a screen-used costume display?
I see a couple more details that could be added to the CRL, looking at those photos. For the pants, there appears to be either trim or a seam down the outside edge. Seems like a good Level 2 requirement. Similarly, for the cuff on the boots, we should note the inset groove that follows the outer edges, either at L1 or L2. And the belt has the ROTJ-style grooves at the edges, as well.
I don't see a clear indication of the vent, however, either in that screen used costume (maybe, but it's not clear from that angle), nor do I see it in the screenshots above?
Also, now that I remember the issues: The belt portion of the CRL calls for this:
"There is one loop on the belt each side of the buckle."
But the CRL photo shows no second loop on the other side, just the one. I don't see it in the costume display, either. Is that a mistake in the CRL that should be corrected?
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7 minutes ago, Tarkin99933 said:
Hello
Give me some days and I will see what I can do. What kind of differences are between his costume and my CRL? (Just curious)
Best Regards
Biggest problem is the back of the tunic. The CRL photo shows a very clearly vented back panel, below the belt. The text description makes no mention of this (and should... I think?). I would like to determine which is correct, because the applicant's tunic is solid, below the belt, one unbroken panel of fabric.
Dialing in the color and confirming it is intended to be the same Feldgrau as the green officer uniforms would be helpful, as well.
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What is the source for this tunic requirement?
"There is a vent that runs from belt height to the bottom on the back of the tunic."
Most of the photos from the first couple of pages are not appearing anymore. Can those links be fixed, or is it just me? We need to maintain a long-term record of these builds, here in the forums.
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1 hour ago, ChrisLie said:
Let me know how it turns out. In going for the Denuo since I already have a lot from them. But I really wanna see it (WW)
Fair warning on the DN stuff, that tunic is VERY creamy white compared to others that are more commonly worn. Definitely appropriate for some of the costumes, but less so for others. Might be worth seeing what others in your garrison are wearing, if you expect to be in group photos with them a lot. We have a local trooper who bought one and has been somewhat unhappy with his, because of that. (It's also far less suitable for non-saga costumes, vs. OT, as they tend towards the cooler whites)
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@Tarkin99933 Is there any chance you can provide updated links to your photos? All the pictures in this thread seem to be dead. I'm trying to do some research on this costume as an applicant has submitted one based on the CRL, and there are some differences from the main CRL photo that I'm trying to determine whether they are just wrong, or if there is any reference for it.
If you know of other threads where this costume is discussed, that would be helpful as well.
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Brown leather is SUPER easy to darken. Most leather moisturizers do it naturally. Give it a shot!
It wouldn't take much to darken that down a bit.
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4 hours ago, ChrisLie said:
I have one DH17 holster in wrong color from DarmanProps. But it was pretty good on the quality. But I am currently waiting for my new one from Philo
Wrong color?
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4 hours ago, Aesmodan said:
Yes, I take a US size 9... ordered a US size 11 = EUR 44...
Makes it tough to predict what would work, would have to be no less than a EUR45, perhaps 46? shrug
Was the issue the length or the width, though? Hessen's boot cut is fairly narrow, so I can see that being an issue for people with wide feet. Length is usually the main issue, size-wise, for others.
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8 hours ago, Aesmodan said:
Yes, I had the non-saga (Andor style) in mind. Thanks for this, I contacted Clothears yesterday and they already responded this morning -- they mentioned they cannot source the grey-tinged Calvary Twill.
I spoke to Wampa a while ago because I could not tell from the photos, but their white tunic does not have pockets for code cylinders (and the non-saga does?)
MazCave and Keep Trooping use cotton, it seems, and not twill (?)
@kman Wanted to pass something by the forum, as the non-saga CRL mentions grey-tinge is optional, and I notice this:
There appears to be three shades of grey in use in Andor: dark grey for Lieutenants Junior Grade and below (two rank buttons), much lighter for Lieutenants ("Senior Grade" = three buttons), and lighter still for senior officers (five buttons+, where the silver epaulettes come into play as well):
I agree it's hard to tell and could be just the lighting, but it appears Dedra's tunic is darker than Partagaz's, and the attendants are in turn much dark than hers. Is e.g., Yularen's lighter or the same shade as Partagaz's?
Would it be an issue for up to level 3 Imperator if the tunic was white? (Edit: googled the forum on this, it appears this is ok per your earlier comments on Twill, Kman. Also, Clothears responded saying they cannot do the tunic in white either (concerns over screen accuracy)).
PS: Andor also has much that is wacky with the ranks. Partagaz is called "Major" when that is an army rank and he's wearing naval blue buttons (?), and five buttons on the rank bar should = army colonel or navy captain. Further this might indicate that there are two branches of the ISB, one working with the army and one with the navy? (Most ISB officers in Andor have rank bars that start with blue, and even back in ANH it was possible to find ISB with both).
I've said this before too, but these two below are 3-4 star flag officers (depending on how you want to treat Brigadiers/Commodores), whereas Yularen on the right is always called "Colonel" while in the ISB. I think he's actually a Colonel General, and this guy with him is a (Squadron?) Admiral...) Red-Blue, then Blue-Red. For fun, how does "Lieutenant" Ocho figure here? (Lieutenant SG should be no more than three buttons, and she wears six, same configuration rank bar as the ISB on the left below?) Ugh!
Just when I thought I was understanding the nuances of this rank structure!
If you're looking for the accurate Cavalry Twill, WampaWear is your ONLY option. Denuo Novo, too, but their tunic is creamier than some like. (which is accurate, but doesn't always read quite right in person, especially standing next to someone in a different shade of white)
You were worried about Code Cylinder pockets on Wampa... they're there. See this L2 thread for some photos.
To my knowledge, there are only three companies that actually have access to legit Cavalry Twill: Clothears (out for the reasons you mentioned), Denuo Novo, and WampaWear. There are literally two factories in the world that still make this fabric. I... can't recall if KeepTrooping might also have it, actually, but if I recall correctly, theirs is a bit weird compared to the others, and I don't think they have a full spread of colors available... possibly just black and feldgrau.
All of these companies use a pattern that is no problem whatsoever. All required features are present in all of them, code cylinders, etc. If you're having a hard time seeing them, they're there, it's just the photo in question.
Periodically some folks from the German Garrison work directly with one of those factories and do raw fabric runs in a variety of colors, and then you can have your own tailor make the custom garment. They have a variety of colors, but not all colors, however... and the most recent run just concluded in December. They only do them every 2-3 years, it seems like (it's an enormous undertaking), so it's going to be quite a while before that option is open to you.
As to color: There are several shades of white that we see on screen. The OT used a very creamy off-white. Those are the tunics with the flap that goes straight across the chest, rather than coming up to the top of the shoulder, like most other officer tunics. Rogue One (see Krennic) used a fairly pure white. These are covered in the ANH Staff CRL:https://databank.501st.com/databank/Costuming:ID_isb#Version_One-0
Andor is a nightmare of color. They use two (not three) shades of "gray" on their ISB officers. The primary ISB tunics are intended to be "white," full stop. But they made a choice to add a slight hint of gray to the white they used, so it contrasts better on screen and doesn't disappear into the stark white walls surrounding them. This has made "Andor Gray" (which should really be called "Andor White") a somewhat popular option that people have been trying to source, particularly for ladies trying to portray Dedra Meero. Unfortunately, while the production had a large run of Cavalry Twill custom run for them in a custom dye lot... it's literally not available anywhere in the world, currently (outside of the LFL costuming department). Jim Tripon found a gabardine twill that is a pretty good match, color-wise, but it's not a Cavalry Twill. He sells the "Andor style" coloring for his ISB tunics. If that particular shade of white/gray is your #1 most important aspect, he's pretty much the only game in town right now, but you sacrifice having the accurate fabric weave.
Andor also has the darker gray Attendant uniforms... the true gray ones you see worn by Meero's assistant, for instance. (Tripon sells these as well, same fabric though)
There is no third shade of ISB uniform on Andor... that's just differences in lighting, between Meero and Partigaz, in your photo above, for instance. The top boss tunics are the same color as Dedra Meero's.
(And yes, I agree their ranks are a mess, too)
Next season is going to be interesting, for reasons I cannot go into.
Getting back to your core question: Pure white ISB is accurate, and what the show creators intended. The addition of a hint of gray makes the tunics "prop accurate" but not really "screen accurate", as the intent of the show is for those to read as white. So a regular pure white tunic, such as those sold by WampaWear, is indeed approvable all the way up to Level 3, for a non-saga ISB Officer. The CRL language on tunic color was carefully phrased to make sure that is clear (we hoped it would be, anyway... but the whole situation is such a mess that it's really difficult to make it all perfectly clear to every reader):
QuoteFabric should be a medium weight, white suiting material.
- OPTIONAL: White material may contain a very light gray tint (a cool white as opposed to a creamy warm white).
- Keep in mind ambient lighting has a dramatic effect on photographs, so a cool white tunic may appear to be warmer based on lighting.
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WampaWear's tunic is Saga or Non-Saga, there is no tunic difference (or fabric difference) unless you're aiming for the Andor-specific white (grayish). Wampa actually uses accurate Cavalry Twill, which Denuo Novo does not, for some reason.
MazCave is still around, I think they're just closing up their Etsy shop as Etsy's policies have been getting worse and worse for sellers. You can reach them via Facebook... I'm not sure if their new website is live yet, or not, but they're working on that.
I suspect Clothears can make you a white tunic, too, if you ask.
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15 hours ago, Cooper said:
Thank you, I think I'll try to get pieces based on him then. I don't think I'll be able to add the boot adjustment strap unfortunately though. Also, do you know if he's one of the characters with the same rank bar in ROTJ or is his different I can't really tell?
Yeah, his is one of the weird ones with OT buttons and spacing
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Yes, he is the Military Officer.
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14 minutes ago, PiotrRasputin said:
Looks like third time was the charm!
PilotBay took only 1 week to:
-answer my question about a larger size than they offer
-make said larger hat
-ship it in less than 3 days
-arrived within 7 days of purchase
Fits perfectly! I did have to swap out their disk with a no-notch disk I already had. But now I can take photos this weekend to submit for my Level 2 Imperial Security Officer (Non-Saga).
Great! Told you, Shannon is the best.
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What you're looking for is a full or half break. This may help: https://propercloth.com/reference/what-is-pant-break/
Imperial Hats - Possible update affecting ALL CRLs that use them!
in CRL Updates
Posted
I'm not clear what you're looking for?