Ketchup

Absolutely! Tier 1 CRLs have gotten pretty ridiculous in some places. Gatekeeping is one thing that gives the Legion a bad rap in the larger costuming community.
 
It's my opinion that Tier 1 could use any kind of riding boot, but for higher tiers, you need a flat top boot. Maybe the strap and inner zipper required for Tier 3. Basic low, blonde military bun for Tier 1, but details like the style of bun and hair net for higher tiers. A wider range of shades of white for Tier 1, more specific for Tier 2-3. We just seem to have differing opinions on what the "correct" shade of white is for higher tiers. Haha. Personally, I think the idea of a range of cool white to very very light dove gray white for higher tiers, and a wider range of white tones for basic could be a good compromise.

My general thoughts on levels 1 through 3 are that 1 should be accessible for those that want to do the costume.  With higher levels something that can be worked on over years if they want to keep striving to get that level of accuracy.  

There has been a lot of pulling level 3 details down to level 1 over the years in the legion.  This does more to dissuade people from joining.  I am a firm believer that costume excellence should be incentivized, not gatekept. 

I also suggest looking at the CRLs for the other similar uniforms:  Imperial Military Non-saga, Security Services Non Saga, and the ISB Non Saga to see where we place what is level 2 and level 3.  We are not bound by precedent, but we try to keep these ships flying in formation with one another.

Hi Sky, 

I agree with you. I was thinking the idea would be to help people get within the right family of hue, (i.e. if we decide it is "white," then the right type of white, (not an ultra pure ("Tide Bright") white.)  And, if we decide it is grey, then the right type of grey, (not a grey that could be mistaken for the dark grey Andor tunic.) This would be an additional resource for those creating the costume themselves.

I’m baaaaack with my annoyingness after finals and Christmas. LOL!
 
Here’s my take on the color thing. There’s a difference between screen-accurate and set-accurate, and I’m going to use the original Star Trek series to illustrate that point (which some may be familiar with):
 
When you see Captain Kirk on-screen, in the show, the tunic has that 60s/70s gold color to it, with a hint of green. If you ever see the actual costume in real life, it’s straight-up avocado green. The way the studio lighting reflects the color makes it appear MUCH different onscreen. To me, the “screen-accurate” color is what we see on screen, and what we would imagine the uniform would look like in real life if Captain Kirk were to step out of your TV screen and into your living room. The avocado green is set-accurate, so, in real life accurate. In my opinion, we need to be going with what is seen on screen, not for what it looks like in real life. We want to look like we *are* the characters, as they are on-screen, not mannequins in a museum.
 
Especially as we’re talking Tier 2 and Tier 3 approvals, I really don’t think we want to use the way the costumes appear in the real world as a basis. Tbh, I feel like if it’s anywhere close to what we see on screen, it should be acceptable for Tier 2-3. The shades of olivegrau aren’t that picky for line officers, I don’t see why it should be for Andor ISB and Dedra. Certainly not to the extent of specifying a Pantone color (a family of colors I could see, though).
 
Also, I would like to suggest potential higher-tier details for Dedra’s hairstyle:
- She wears a specific bun style that should be re-created/emulated, and
- She wears a light blonde hair net over the bun.
 
Dedra’s hairstyle does make her different from her colleagues, after all.
 
(Edit for spelling error.)

I currently have a Dedro Meero tunic in progress with Francesco. We discussed the color this week (since it's been a topic of discussion here.) He said he's searching on the light grey, but at the moment he's told everyone he will use cool white.

Cool white is actually a good description for the color. This term is normally used more in terms of describing LED colors or paint colors, but it is defined as a white that contains more "blue light," or a white that is "blue white." 


 
I have a suggestion, based upon something we were discussing in our garrison ISB Build group. We were also talking about colors there. One of our build group members, Jeremy, shared this image from when he was working on the Death Watch Live Action CRL. They used this chart to make sure everyone got the colors correct, even with Pantone to Hex conversions. Both Pantone and Hex values are offered for all of the colors to ensure all who were building kept the colors within the same family of hues. Creating a similar chart could be a valuable tool in ensuring the pieces of the Andor ISB Officer are within the correct family of hues.

Thoughts?


 

I'm glad to see this CRL is in full construction now! Can't wait to see what we all as team can create!

I think that's a great suggestion!

Since we're all stuck staring at fabric on screens, what about just using a hex code instead? Like so: Ghost white / #f8f8ff hex color (colorhexa.com)
 

Standard procedure is to be pretty liberal with what's allowed for basic approval.  Pretty much any riding boot that would pass for any Imperial officer is going to work, there.  Zippers are already allowed inside, for basic, on all the CRLs... that's not going to change, but neither will we *require* them at basic, even though we obviously know they're there.
 
We haven't decided yet if we'll be *requiring* the zipper at L2 or L3.  One of those, in all probability.  And I suspect the buckle/flap will be an L3 detail, as was done with Krennic.  (the first time boots with these details showed up)

Thank you. This is very sound reasoning. There's a number of folks in our garrison who wish to do this costume and have been trying to figure out this shade. This guidance helps a great deal. (We are including our GML in our discussions.) And, I love your guidance of white with a hint of gray, as I think that describes it perfectly.

It's a light gray ... that's so light it appears white.  I am familiar with non-color corrected raw source material as well, which is far as I go without messing with my NDA.
 
From a CRL perspective, if we call it gray, no matter how light, people are going to go GRAY, and we end up getting into fights with GMLs over... shades of gray.
 
I think we still need to call it white, else we get into No True Scotsman areas.

If you want to use "white with a hint of gray" for your tunic, no one is going to say boo about it.

just received word minutes ago that the LMO has approved this costume to move forward.  We look forward to the constructions we see here.

I can't speak for any LMO administrations having not served on one.
I can speak for previous IOC administrations having been your predecessor, and working with my predecessor and his.
Where has there been resistance to CRLs for women?
The CRL models could certainly be updated to feature a more diverse array of members, but in my time and in my various roles I was never privy to specific CRLs for women or feminine presenting members being denied for that reason alone.
Seeing as you brought it up here, I'd appreciate elaboration on it here.
- Jeff

I’m baaaaack with my annoyingness after finals and Christmas. LOL!
 
Here’s my take on the color thing. There’s a difference between screen-accurate and set-accurate, and I’m going to use the original Star Trek series to illustrate that point (which some may be familiar with):
 
When you see Captain Kirk on-screen, in the show, the tunic has that 60s/70s gold color to it, with a hint of green. If you ever see the actual costume in real life, it’s straight-up avocado green. The way the studio lighting reflects the color makes it appear MUCH different onscreen. To me, the “screen-accurate” color is what we see on screen, and what we would imagine the uniform would look like in real life if Captain Kirk were to step out of your TV screen and into your living room. The avocado green is set-accurate, so, in real life accurate. In my opinion, we need to be going with what is seen on screen, not for what it looks like in real life. We want to look like we *are* the characters, as they are on-screen, not mannequins in a museum.
 
Especially as we’re talking Tier 2 and Tier 3 approvals, I really don’t think we want to use the way the costumes appear in the real world as a basis. Tbh, I feel like if it’s anywhere close to what we see on screen, it should be acceptable for Tier 2-3. The shades of olivegrau aren’t that picky for line officers, I don’t see why it should be for Andor ISB and Dedra. Certainly not to the extent of specifying a Pantone color (a family of colors I could see, though).
 
Also, I would like to suggest potential higher-tier details for Dedra’s hairstyle:
- She wears a specific bun style that should be re-created/emulated, and
- She wears a light blonde hair net over the bun.
 
Dedra’s hairstyle does make her different from her colleagues, after all.
 
(Edit for spelling error.)

Kat's post above shows the issue with specifying Pantone colors.  And FWIW on my uncalibrated (but not inexpensive) monitor, that color looks almost tan... nothing remotely close to how Meero's uniform looks on screen.
 
This strikes me a a similar problem to the Anovos protoype Krennic tunic that was on display at Cons for a while.  They bragged about how they had color-matched screen-used tunics for it... the problem is, the screen-used tunics the matched were used in the outdoor scenes on Jedha, and in person under normal lighting, they looked like you took a white ISB tunic and tea-stained it.  NO one wanted that color, unless they were planning to use it to film scenes under the same lighting conditions and color grading used on those Rogue One scenes.  They looked... kinda like how those Pantone tiles are showing on my monitor, frankly.  Only in person.  Not good.
 
Just to further illustrate the point, using some images from this thread, here your Pantone tile, overlaid on Meero's tunic:
 

 

 

 
Color grading messes things up pretty badly. when you try to recreate what you see on screen, which is what we're trying to do.

I've seen other CRLs with Pantone numbers specified.  (Hell, I've been involved in updating CRLs where the detachment specifically wanted to include Pantone numbers.)  If we are going to get that specific, we need to strongly emphasize that Pantone colors are to be used only as a recommendation in order to help convey a rough idea of the color we are looking for and are not a requirement in any shape or form. 
 
Textile swatches are meant to be physically color matched in person, which will only happen if you have a GML who has spent their own money to buy a Pantone swatch, has cared for it according to Pantone recommendations so it is an accurate representation of the color, and is using the swatch to compare to an applicant's costume they are physically inspecting in person. (How often has that ever happened?)
 
The most likely scenario is that a GML is examining a photo of a color swatch with a photo of an applicant's costume, which introduces variables such as camera quality and white balance in the applicant photos, how the swatch and the applicant photos display on the GML's monitor (which is likely not color calibrated), the GML's unique perception of color, etc. For example, the swatch above on my uncalibrated monitor looks like a warm cream that's darker than Yularen's uniform in ANH, and isn't even close to the cool very pale grey of how I perceive Dedra's uniform on screen. I personally would not approve the screen worn costume if I was a GML who was told to only approve costumes that match the swatch above. 
 
Anyone who's ever been to a paint store and torn their hair out trying to choose a shade of white knows how annoying this is going to be. 

I appreciate you feedback, but respectfully, I do think you misunderstood my post above. 
 
The main reason I think she should have a CRL is not because she's a woman. Its because she's the main antagonist in the Andor series. What I meant is that not every background officer with one or no lines needs a CRL. But if they are a main character, I believe that's enough to warrant a CRL. Again, Dedra is not a background character, she's the main villain of the show and probably will be for the next season. That's why myself and others believe she needs a CRL. 
 
As a stated a few post above, we recently had a few members voice that the IOC CRLs were not diverse enough, its a public post. While it doesn't specifically address the issue raised in the post, having a Dedra CRL would help the situation I believe, however, it was not my only reason for her have a CRL. I don't like sexual discrimination either, I assure you of that. But I fail to see how providing more representation equals discrimination. I pointed out that Dedra is a the first onscreen female lead officer in a Star Wars IP, that's a true statement and only one of my points.
 
We're now also learning her uniform is designed differently. This hasn't stopped us in the past. ANH Staff and Non Saga Staff are the same thing with different stitching. Which is totally fine! 
 
This whole discussion started because someone wanted to make a Dedra CRL and they were denied. No one should be opposed to more CRLs. Just look at the Clone Trooper Detachment, they'll make a new CRL for minor variations and that's totally fine! The more the merrier! At the end of the day, I just want more CRLs. Yes, they need to be done right with proper references, I agree. I believe Dedra deserves one for multiple reason, not just because she's a female. 
 
Yes, I would be open to continuing this conversion elsewhere. 

This CRL system where one CRL can be the base for any officer isn't being promoted truthfully. Whether that's intentional or unintentional I'm not sure.
 
You can't say that the ISB CRL can be used to get approved as any named officer. Taking Dedra's configuration and applying as ISB doesn't make you Dedra, it makes you ISB. These face characters need separate CRLs if you want to be officially approved as that character. Otherwise your just a generic officer with a character's configuration. 
 
For example, I can't go to my GML and say, "I'm Dedra, but I'm applying as ISB". I'm going to get listed as ISB officially. When the DL said, "Deedra Meero CAN be done this moment with the existing CRL.", it's not true. So I said "Dedra can't be done at the moment." I hope my explanation above makes sense. 

Obviously, not every named officer needs a CRL. I'm also for adding more rank bars and configurations to the generic CRLs, that's fine.  But Dedra is a main villain, she is more than worthy of a CRL. It doesn't matter that she uses the same parts of ISB. Besides, we are quickly learning her uniform is slightly altered. 
 
As a side note, I also don't appreciate the hesitation of this detachment to make CRLs. For an administration that claims to be so pro CRL and costume creation, there was certainly an effort made to shut this one down immediately. I'm sure it would have if myself and others didn't step in to protest. You don't need group interest to make a CRL. If only ONE person is willing to put in the work, let them make the CRL, they have that right. It isn't up to the DL to pick and choice what is made.  

"Dedra can't be done at the moment."
 
What does that mean?

I wholeheartedly agree with Eagle in my capacity as Diversity Officer for my garrison. A female imperial lead is a VERY big deal and to not include her as her own CRL would be a disservice to all female and femme-presenting 501st members who have been waiting so long for a major female Imperial face character. This could also have implications for possible LFL casting troops, although they are rarer these days, I will admit. And people want to see face characters, let’s be honest.
 
She and the femme-identifying members of the Legion deserve more than “ISB non-saga with three blue tiles and a blonde bun.”
 
On the point of the middle seam, there is no evidence it *is* there in the non-saga ISB uniforms. Not in the references I’ve been able to find, anyway. They rarely show the tunic without the belt, so the opportunities to look are few and far between. We only know it’s there in the OT uniforms because they’ve been on display where they can be closely examined. The ISB non-saga has not had that opportunity, to my knowledge.
 
I am currently working to get higher-res images, and reaching out to find someone who might be able to tell me more. I’m also working closely with my GML, who is an approved staff officer and naval trooper. We’ve been pouring over the scenes where Dedra and the other ISB officers appear, and as far as we can see clearly, at least in Andor, they all wear the same style flat top boot with a strap. The location and style of the strap is still something we’re trying to nail down.

I wholeheartedly agree with Eagle in my capacity as Diversity Officer for my garrison. A female imperial lead is a VERY big deal and to not include her as her own CRL would be a disservice to all female and femme-presenting 501st members who have been waiting so long for a major female Imperial face character. This could also have implications for possible LFL casting troops, although they are rarer these days, I will admit. And people want to see face characters, let’s be honest.
 
She and the femme-identifying members of the Legion deserve more than “ISB non-saga with three blue tiles and a blonde bun.”
 
On the point of the middle seam, there is no evidence it *is* there in the non-saga ISB uniforms. Not in the references I’ve been able to find, anyway. They rarely show the tunic without the belt, so the opportunities to look are few and far between. We only know it’s there in the OT uniforms because they’ve been on display where they can be closely examined. The ISB non-saga has not had that opportunity, to my knowledge.
 
I am currently working to get higher-res images, and reaching out to find someone who might be able to tell me more. I’m also working closely with my GML, who is an approved staff officer and naval trooper. We’ve been pouring over the scenes where Dedra and the other ISB officers appear, and as far as we can see clearly, at least in Andor, they all wear the same style flat top boot with a strap. The location and style of the strap is still something we’re trying to nail down.

Dedra can't be done at the moment. You can use her configuration, but most the ISB officers had that same one. At the end of the day, you'll just be approved as ISB. The GML is going to approve you as ISB.
 
Glad you decided to listen to the membership.

I've known her for 15 years.  She's amazing.  Right now, the more references the better.

And I would go take a look in the recent non saga ISB CRL thread.  We have a lot of screen caps there and in our galleries at the top of the page.