shadan

We’ve tried so many times man. It’s so frustrating. Some get through and some don’t. There’s little to no consistency and that really irks me so much. 

https://imperialgunners.com/forums/index.php?/topic/3357-sith-fleet-technician-tros-crl-draft/

get the thread link if you would.  I am a gunner too.  I'll go take a look.

I’ve trawled through that research thread on the IGC forums. Believe me, there’s less.

this costume has NOT been forgotten.  There are quite a number of members with experience making first of a kind costumes that believe there is more than enough information here and we will resubmit this when more information becomes available, when the LMO office changes its mind or we get a brand new LMO office.  Whichever comes first.

I’m less worried about the costume being forgotten than I am about the atrocities that go under the rug. I have full faith this costume will be approved, but the damage being done in the meantime….someone has to own this series of mistakes.

Oh he has don’t worry. This costume has not been forgotten! 

Well I’ve raised this issue on the main legion forums, and although Steph as a non-member cannot, I would challenge anyone else in here who has the backbone to join me in asking the lmo’s to explain themselves on this.

TL;DR: Disney are going to do a version of the original Thrawn trilogy, Heir to the Empire, Dark Force Rising and The Last Command.

I know I’m not the only one who believes this and I’m sure many of you here have had similar thoughts but I wanted to start a friendly discussion.
 
Those who have watched The Mandalorian episode The Jedi will know that Thrawn is going to come back to live action, most likely in the Ahsoka TV series. But I am proposing that Disney are actually going to do what fans have wanted for over 20 years, seeing the original Thrawn trilogy play out in live action. 

In the original books, Grand Admiral Thrawn shows up with a large Imperial force out of the blue and almost decimates the New Republic. No one had even heard of him and he very nearly wins.
He had been sent off on a mission by the Emperor and missed the Battle of Endor, only returning (patiently) when the time was right.

As it stands in the current canon, Thrawn was almost defeated by Ezra Bridger and the Rebels, the two of them are then transported to the Unknown Regions, again missing the Battle of Endor. This is why Ahsoka is actually trying to find Thrawn, she's looking for Ezra.
So at this point in both timelines following Endor Thrawn is alive but out of the picture and biding his time.

In Heir to the Empire, Thrawn locates a secret stronghold of the Emperor, Mount Tantiss on the planet Weyland.
Here he finds the location guarded by an insane clone of Jedi Master Jorus C'baoth. This clone (with the slightly on the nose altered name of Joruus C'baoth) is actually quite powerful and is needed for Thrawn's plans. C'baoth, in return, wants the children of Han and Leia to train. 
Within this facility Thrawn finds what he is after, a cloning facility which is uses to create a huge army of forces for the Empire.

The last episode of The Bad Batch actually shows this same planet and Mount Tantiss itself. The Empire takes the Kaminoan cloner (I forget her name sorry) to Weyland against her will to continue the secret cloning plans of the Emperor. This isn't just a guess because the location looks similar to what is described in Heir to the Empire, actual released imagery by Disney labels this as Mount Tantiss.
 


I believe that Ezra will actually be turned (we've seen hints of this already) and take on the role that Joruus C'baoth filled in the books, helping Thrawn to control his forces and possibly even wanting Han and Leia's offspring, Ben.
It could also be a version of Snoke who takes this role admittedly, in fact that would probably work better in the whole scheme of things, but then I'm not sure what happens with Ezra in this case....

We know that the Emperor is doing all kinds of crazy cloning stuff. We've seen jars of Snokes in The Rise of Skywalker as well as whatever those experiments were in The Mandalorian. Cloning was an important part of the Thrawn trilogy so this all fits.

This brings us to Mara Jade, also first introduced in Heir to the Empire. I think she's coming back as well, and not just because I really want her to (I named by second daughter after her!) but it just makes sense.
There have been rumours of her being cast but the strongest evidence I feel is in the latest Thrawn book. There's a memory in that which plays out a scene from the Legends book Outbound Flight. It is told from the point of view of Thrawn's brother Thrass. It's the last thing he experiences before he sacrifices himself in order to save many lives.
Years later, again within Legends, Luke Skywalker and Mara Jade find his remains and work out what happened to the Outbound Flight mission.
By including this scene in his latest book, Timothy Zahn has pretty much made the book Outbound Flight canon again. Well, a bit of it. Not quite making Mara canon but it's close, it’s so close.
But, and this makes me sad, I think Mara will die. And this is one of the reasons which led to Luke's self-exile in The Force Awakens.

The current canon time period fits for these events to take place. If things do play out similar to the books, there's no reason why they would effect the sequel trilogy too much.
people might say that they’re never mentioned so how could they have happened. I’d argue that we don’t always go about talking about things that happened in the past all the time just in case someone is filming us. 

I'm not exactly sure how Ahsoka will fit into things though. I'm not saying things are going to be exactly the same, but they will be similar. Evidence just keeps stacking up.
It's so exciting.
Would love to hear other people’s thoughts on this.

TL;DR: Disney are going to do a version of the original Thrawn trilogy, Heir to the Empire, Dark Force Rising and The Last Command.

I know I’m not the only one who believes this and I’m sure many of you here have had similar thoughts but I wanted to start a friendly discussion.
 
Those who have watched The Mandalorian episode The Jedi will know that Thrawn is going to come back to live action, most likely in the Ahsoka TV series. But I am proposing that Disney are actually going to do what fans have wanted for over 20 years, seeing the original Thrawn trilogy play out in live action. 

In the original books, Grand Admiral Thrawn shows up with a large Imperial force out of the blue and almost decimates the New Republic. No one had even heard of him and he very nearly wins.
He had been sent off on a mission by the Emperor and missed the Battle of Endor, only returning (patiently) when the time was right.

As it stands in the current canon, Thrawn was almost defeated by Ezra Bridger and the Rebels, the two of them are then transported to the Unknown Regions, again missing the Battle of Endor. This is why Ahsoka is actually trying to find Thrawn, she's looking for Ezra.
So at this point in both timelines following Endor Thrawn is alive but out of the picture and biding his time.

In Heir to the Empire, Thrawn locates a secret stronghold of the Emperor, Mount Tantiss on the planet Weyland.
Here he finds the location guarded by an insane clone of Jedi Master Jorus C'baoth. This clone (with the slightly on the nose altered name of Joruus C'baoth) is actually quite powerful and is needed for Thrawn's plans. C'baoth, in return, wants the children of Han and Leia to train. 
Within this facility Thrawn finds what he is after, a cloning facility which is uses to create a huge army of forces for the Empire.

The last episode of The Bad Batch actually shows this same planet and Mount Tantiss itself. The Empire takes the Kaminoan cloner (I forget her name sorry) to Weyland against her will to continue the secret cloning plans of the Emperor. This isn't just a guess because the location looks similar to what is described in Heir to the Empire, actual released imagery by Disney labels this as Mount Tantiss.
 


I believe that Ezra will actually be turned (we've seen hints of this already) and take on the role that Joruus C'baoth filled in the books, helping Thrawn to control his forces and possibly even wanting Han and Leia's offspring, Ben.
It could also be a version of Snoke who takes this role admittedly, in fact that would probably work better in the whole scheme of things, but then I'm not sure what happens with Ezra in this case....

We know that the Emperor is doing all kinds of crazy cloning stuff. We've seen jars of Snokes in The Rise of Skywalker as well as whatever those experiments were in The Mandalorian. Cloning was an important part of the Thrawn trilogy so this all fits.

This brings us to Mara Jade, also first introduced in Heir to the Empire. I think she's coming back as well, and not just because I really want her to (I named by second daughter after her!) but it just makes sense.
There have been rumours of her being cast but the strongest evidence I feel is in the latest Thrawn book. There's a memory in that which plays out a scene from the Legends book Outbound Flight. It is told from the point of view of Thrawn's brother Thrass. It's the last thing he experiences before he sacrifices himself in order to save many lives.
Years later, again within Legends, Luke Skywalker and Mara Jade find his remains and work out what happened to the Outbound Flight mission.
By including this scene in his latest book, Timothy Zahn has pretty much made the book Outbound Flight canon again. Well, a bit of it. Not quite making Mara canon but it's close, it’s so close.
But, and this makes me sad, I think Mara will die. And this is one of the reasons which led to Luke's self-exile in The Force Awakens.

The current canon time period fits for these events to take place. If things do play out similar to the books, there's no reason why they would effect the sequel trilogy too much.
people might say that they’re never mentioned so how could they have happened. I’d argue that we don’t always go about talking about things that happened in the past all the time just in case someone is filming us. 

I'm not exactly sure how Ahsoka will fit into things though. I'm not saying things are going to be exactly the same, but they will be similar. Evidence just keeps stacking up.
It's so exciting.
Would love to hear other people’s thoughts on this.

We are making a small update to the CRL today.  I'm tagging it onto this thread since it's still quite new, and the update is small.  This update has already been approved by the LMO team, as it is a modification for basic level approval (even though it's optional), and should be added shortly.
 
In The Mandalorian we have seen officers for the first time (Katie O'Brian's character) wearing boots with a v-shaped notch at the back of the boot's top.  These aren't actual expansion joints, per se, but they're different enough from prior boots that we feel the addition of the option is warranted, since it's the first time we've seen something other than a fairly flat top in boots.
 

 

 
The addition to the existing language is in red, below:
 
 
Enjoy your newest option!

Happy to help.

You were 100% right to raise these boots @charlyselo. It was a completely valid proposal.
It's bought about some good discussion from various members with great responses for and against their inclusion.
I think it's important that these discussions were had here where they can be referred back to in the future so we can see how decisions were made.
Personally I'm not against including FO boots at the basic level, but perhaps what @kman has suggested, reassessing this again in the future, is the best solution in the short-term to get the new CRL up and running. CRLs are always evolving and that's a good thing.

You were 100% right to raise these boots @charlyselo. It was a completely valid proposal.
It's bought about some good discussion from various members with great responses for and against their inclusion.
I think it's important that these discussions were had here where they can be referred back to in the future so we can see how decisions were made.
Personally I'm not against including FO boots at the basic level, but perhaps what @kman has suggested, reassessing this again in the future, is the best solution in the short-term to get the new CRL up and running. CRLs are always evolving and that's a good thing.

You were 100% right to raise these boots @charlyselo. It was a completely valid proposal.
It's bought about some good discussion from various members with great responses for and against their inclusion.
I think it's important that these discussions were had here where they can be referred back to in the future so we can see how decisions were made.
Personally I'm not against including FO boots at the basic level, but perhaps what @kman has suggested, reassessing this again in the future, is the best solution in the short-term to get the new CRL up and running. CRLs are always evolving and that's a good thing.

The issue under discussion isn't a Chelsea style first order boot.  It's the full height first order boots.
 
A number of people seem a little confused about what's happening here so I'll break it down a bit.
 
The non-saga black-uniformed officer CRL is here: "Staff Officer (Non-Saga)" https://databank.501st.com/databank/Costuming:Temp-Imperial-Staff-Officer_(Non_Saga)
 
The non-saga olive-uniformed officer CRL is here: "Imperial Military Officer (Non-Saga)" https://databank.501st.com/databank/Costuming:ID_imperial_officer(Non-Saga)
 
One thing you'll note about the olive CRL vs the black, is the olive CRL includes elements previously included as the "Social Officer", folded in as a tab (optional varation) on the main CRL, because other than straight pants and chelsea boots instead of jodphurs and tall boots, they're identical.  Similarly, the "Science Officer" has absolutely zero difference from the new Non-Saga uniform.  Just a specific rank.  Officer CRLs should not be differentiated just by a rank bar, else we need to make a LOT more CRLs.
 
So what we are doing, is updating the black officer CRL (for these non-saga costumes, made decades after the OT but ostensibly in the same general time period) to include those same options (straight leg pants and chelsea boots) as a tabbed variant, just like it is with the olive officer now.  At that point the Social Officer CRLs and Science Officer CRLs will both be retired as fully redundant.  This is all very straightforward and simple, and should be non-controversial.  We're just organizing things better... no actual options that are currently allowed, will NOT be allowed, with this change.  We'll lose a couple of redundant CRLs, which is a little sad, but existing people will be grandfathered in, as always, and people who wish to do those configurations will still be able to under the revised non-saga CRL, so there should be no issues there.
 
The current debate is about additional NEW adjustments to the black officer CRL.  The ONLY sticking point we've been discussing here is whether or not to allow Imperial Security Officers (the black ones) in these costumes, wear First Order tall boots, as an alternative to the standard English riding boots they've traditionally worn.
 
Considering how few people own First Order boots, and how hard they are to get, I suspect this will affect a VERY small number of people.  But some seem quite passionate about it, despite it being painfully obvious that the intent of the costumers was for officers to wear traditional riding boots.  They stuck some background characters in FO boots they had laying around, just because they ran out.  And unfortunately some photos then ended up in the Visual Guide photos.
 
So do we stick with the intent of the costumers (which is well documented) and keep First Order boots off of Imperial costumes, or do we say "Oh well it was on screen, despite not being really how they intended things to look, so it must be fine."  At this point I refer back to my earlier points about Mr No Stripes, the stormtrooper who lacked blue stripes on his helmet.  This fellow was seen multiple times on screen, but we know it was simply a mistake / rushed costuming job, and not the intent of how they wanted Imperial Stormtroopers to look.  So FISD does not allow Mr No Stripes configurations for their Stormtroopers.  Other examples of situations like this are scattered around the the Legion.  There is a LOT of precedent for this sort of stance.  People who want to replicate screen-used props and costumes *precisely* have a home at TheRPF, where replication is the goal.  The goal of the 501st is very high level costuming, and looking like a cohesive group, not replicating every mistake seen on screen.
 
Again, I would guess less than 10 people in the entire Legion are really going to ever want to do this, barring some future changes in future shows (at that point we obviously update the CRL, no issue with that).  But do we codify what is, in essence, a mistake, into our CRLs?
 
This is what we're wrestling with.
 
Photos for illustration of the options:
 
Classic English Riding boots (all smooth leather, classic shoe soles with heel)
 

 
First Order tall boots (distinct seamed "cuff" towards the top, thick flat foam soles)

I have been reading your comments, I know you are still coming up to speed with how we are doing things.
 
We have made the straight pants and Chelsea boots as optional variants.  Canonically there never was a social officer or a science officer.  There was simply an officer wearing straight pants and Chelsea boots per the uniform of the day where they were stationed.  If you have served in the military you would recognize that the CLR that we just issued for the Naval and Army officers in green is set up this way.
 
As to the First Order style boots being permitted, I have talked about the two principles at play.  We deal with principles because it is important to remove personality and preference from these decisions and serve the broadest number of members here.  Too often detachments try to improve the quality of costumes by making changes to the level 1 details.  That is not the place for it.  It should be done to the level 2 and level 3 areas.  These changes don't elevate standards so much as they block entry for many members.  We are seeing more comments from garrison officers speaking here or messaging me directly.  
 
As for the principles, the first is we allow what we see.  We have no less than 4 recorded instances of officers wearing these First Order style boots.  This is a very easy precedent to follow because it is extremely clear cut.  You see it? You can do it.

The other principle is called allowing only the "idealized" version the costume.  This principle is more esoteric and has no hard line.  You see we do not make Star Wars in the legion, we only emulate it.  LFL makes Star Wars.  So we say that these boots were all they could find, but they really should be like a black unadorned English riding boot, not a first order boot.  What is the threshold to allow it to be included?  2 boots?  4?  8? 10?  What is the level and when is that level not arbitrary by the decision maker?

I am not for arbitrary.  And I am for full transparency.  And I am for members in the majority of the times knowing what they can and cannot do before they even speak with us.  After getting more people engaged, it is the most important thing as to why I have come to this office.
 
If a member has a First Order costume and wants to do a security services uniform and they reuse their FO boots....I am ok with it.  We can word that so it isn't prohibitive of them doing it.  We can still hold the ideal for level 2 and 3 as the English leather riding boots.  But no one is going to call the person not screen accurate... because there it is, on the screen.
And it gets that member trooping.
 
And canonically we call these First Order boots because we first saw them in The Force Awakens.   But we have now seen them in Solo and Rogue One.  They are reminiscent to the cuffs on boots found on Republic officers in The Clone Wars and Revenge of the Sith.  This is part of the reason why we are separating these CRLs from the OT CRLs.  The OT will not be touched.  These new CRLs will go where LFL takes us.  And I think that is the right direction.

I don't know if this matter either way, or not, but thought I'd chime in in case it helps.  Although I'm one of those folks that believes if it's seen on screen then it should be good in a CRL, I do completely understand about something like FO boots should only be for FO and not OT.
 
I did speak to David Crossman in 2017 or 2018, and at the time I was talking to him, via email, about the Solo Fleet Trooper (which at the time the concept was for them to be a female only group so I didn't really dig too much deeper after finding that out).  But, I can provide an email, if it matters, where he did tell me that in Solo, they did use some FO boots when they ran out of the others...
 
Per Mr. Crossman:  "As they [referring to the Fleet Trooper] are wearing breeches, we use[d] the taller officers style field boot with buckle at the top to fit it at the calf, and we would preferably use a boot with a heel rather than a wedge (the wedge soles are 1st order but they are in our tock so are used sometimes when we run out of boots.)"
 
Anyhow, that's why in Solo, and probably R1, we see some minor background folks with the F.O. boots.
 
At any rate, I love what you all are doing... consolidating yet keeping it simple.  Brilliant, and will pay off in the future for sure!

Correct. 
Much like how the recent Imperial Military Officer CRL included those items. 
Once both of the Non-Saga CRLs are live I imagine there wouldn’t be a need for either the Social or Science Officer CRLs as all the items and variations will be included here. 

There actually is an existing CRL for that uniform, the Imperial Officer: Social. What bob suggests here with chelsea boots is just a reoganization in a single CRL separated by tabs of some pre-existing CRLs.

Another thing is the discussion about FO boots, that whould be a new inclussion as an option…


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I’m so torn with this, despite my last post. 
I agree that the intent of the costume is that the officers are wearing regular riding boots. In saying that though, it’s clear from the references that not all of them are. 
As a serving military member, I can say that sometimes we have options with footwear. There are the issued boots which all look the same, and we can also go out and buy boots that are actually comfortable to wear as long as they meet the safety guidelines and look similar. I don’t wear my issued boots and if someone were to look closely they would see that. 
What I’m saying is that in a real world situation it’s not uncommon to see some variation in footwear. 
In this case though it’s obviously a budget issue, stores availability, time restriction or something like that. I don’t think the average person was ever meant to notice, but we are hardly the average person here!
I think I’ve come around on the FO boots. But if they are to be included I vote that should only be permissible at the basic level, nothing higher. 
But that’s just my (amended) two cents. 

I’m so torn with this, despite my last post. 
I agree that the intent of the costume is that the officers are wearing regular riding boots. In saying that though, it’s clear from the references that not all of them are. 
As a serving military member, I can say that sometimes we have options with footwear. There are the issued boots which all look the same, and we can also go out and buy boots that are actually comfortable to wear as long as they meet the safety guidelines and look similar. I don’t wear my issued boots and if someone were to look closely they would see that. 
What I’m saying is that in a real world situation it’s not uncommon to see some variation in footwear. 
In this case though it’s obviously a budget issue, stores availability, time restriction or something like that. I don’t think the average person was ever meant to notice, but we are hardly the average person here!
I think I’ve come around on the FO boots. But if they are to be included I vote that should only be permissible at the basic level, nothing higher. 
But that’s just my (amended) two cents. 

Thank you, I look forward to it

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@Peterpangood news.  The LMOs have voted and will allow this to move forward.  We will be submitting the CRL to them soon.

@charlyselo I admire you finding this.  I have looked at Lieutenant Punta for 5 years now and this is the first time I have ever noticed this about his boots.  

And you are right, we need to have clear guidelines for what we accept or not based on evidence found.  

We have two principles underway right now:

One is if we see it, it should be allowed.  That goes for the film and in other visual mediums like reference books and the like.

The other principle is "intent".  Meaning that this was a background character never meant to be wearing the what we would call a "hero" kit.  That is why his boots are reused First Order boots.  

Both of these principles have been applied across ALL detachments in a case by case basis.  It is why some things are not considered particularly with stromtroopers.  Their CRLs lean more to the idealized.

Then there are other CRLs that pick up every variation and nuance and make sure it is an option in the CRL.
 
This is something we need to consider because I DO believe in precedent with future CRLs.  It should not be our "whim", but a member should be able to look at something and with a reasonable degree of certainty know if it would be accepted or not.